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Metal in engine oil
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=75304		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  ihdiesel [ Sun May 19, 2013 1:51 am ]
Post subject:  Metal in engine oil
So I pulled the dipstick to check the oil level, it was low but still in between the lines. I noticed a metal flake on my dipstick. I checked a few more times and saw the same thing. I drove to work in my jetta leaving the jeep to deal with later. When I got home I pulled an oil sample out of the pan and found that there was a decent amount of nonferrous metal chunks/flakes. I know this is going to be bad.... Where do I start looking for the source of the flakes? any ideas?

The Liberty has 70,000 miles on it with about 2000 on the oil change. All was well before this happened
Author:  TJ2 [ Sun May 19, 2013 3:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Metal in engine oil
Did you use a magnet to determine it was non-ferrous flakes?

Guys here will be along to give you better advice, but I would start with a used oil analysis.
Author:  DOC4444 [ Sun May 19, 2013 6:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Metal in engine oil
Uggh! Sorry. The only non-ferrous material I am aware of in the motor is aluminum and that would be the pistons.

DO NOT RUN!

Check with Keith at GDE.

Again, sorry.

DOC
Author:  papaindigo [ Sun May 19, 2013 8:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Metal in engine oil
Could be piston bits, shavings off main or rod bearing material, bits of head material, etc. I agree with Doc do not run. Before tearing into the engine you might send an oil sample with the bits off for analysis which might narrow down the source.
Author:  audiboy86 [ Sun May 19, 2013 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Metal in engine oil
Could also be the sleeve this is kinda starting to sound like a glow plug has broken off in the motor. Because it could also be the aluminum head with a broken rocker rolling around in there. Scaring the top of the head up a little bit ask me how I know about this.
Author:  DOC4444 [ Sun May 19, 2013 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Metal in engine oil
I do not think you need to bother with an oil analysis. However, I would open up the oil filter and unfold the element on a large bench or table. Copper is bearing material. Aluminum is most likely piston material. I was under the impression it seemed to be running fine. If that is the case, probably not a broken rocker gouging the head.

An oil filter cutter is nice, but you can do it with a hacksaw and/or sheet metal sheers, just not as neatly.

There was a guy a couple weeks ago with a rod rap who was going to look into removing the oil pan without completely removing the engine, but he disappeared.

Again, sorry.

DOC
Author:  audiboy86 [ Sun May 19, 2013 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Metal in engine oil
I was 3 rockers down and could only tell a slight difference and was still running I thought it was just the turbo going.
Author:  ihdiesel [ Sun May 19, 2013 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Metal in engine oil
Yes it is still running fine. I ran some oil through a coffee filter the piece were small. When it quits raining I will push it into the garage and get the oil filter off and cut the can to see what we have. I grabbed a filter cutter from work. I still had the previous filter so I cut it open and It looked clean enough. Thanks for the responses!
Author:  geordi [ Sun May 19, 2013 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Metal in engine oil
Uh-oh. Keep us updated.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Author:  ihdiesel [ Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Metal in engine oil
OK... Its been a rough week. I had a death in the family. Prior to leaving I cut the oil filter and separated the pleats of the filter media. I saw a couple of small flakes. nothing seriously alarming, I convinced myself that it was ok. Desperate to make the trip I decided to hit the road. Installed new filter and oil and made the 120 mile trip. Before coming home I pulled dipstick. Lets just say I will be picking the jeep up on a trailer this coming weekend. I'm sure that everyone can agree that I exercised bad judgement, but at least I have convinced myself that I have a real problem to fix.
Author:  MedicPatriot [ Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Metal in engine oil
Is it normal to have small metal shavings in the oil filter? I ask because when I recently changed my mothers oil in her chevy lumina, there were metal flakes drained out. I thought it would be the filters job to filter out particles, and that would why why I found these coming out of her filter. I haven't experienced this before though...
Author:  geordi [ Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Metal in engine oil
NO. Metal in the oil filter or in the drainage is a VERY VERY VERY bad sign.

First order of business would be to have an oil analysis done by Blackstone labs, they can (I'm fairly certain) tell you what parts of the engine are now in your oil pan, which at least points you in the direction of what to fix.

ihdiesel, can't fault you with the circumstances... But as a warning to everyone, that is a rough way to do it. An econobox rental car is ALWAYS cheaper than a major repair or being stranded. Unfortunately, with my CRD... I learned that lesson the hard way too.
Author:  MedicPatriot [ Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Metal in engine oil
geordi wrote:
NO. Metal in the oil filter or in the drainage is a VERY VERY VERY bad sign.

First order of business would be to have an oil analysis done by Blackstone labs, they can (I'm fairly certain) tell you what parts of the engine are now in your oil pan, which at least points you in the direction of what to fix.

ihdiesel, can't fault you with the circumstances... But as a warning to everyone, that is a rough way to do it. An econobox rental car is ALWAYS cheaper than a major repair or being stranded. Unfortunately, with my CRD... I learned that lesson the hard way too.


The car I mentioned is an old piece of junk lumina that probably hasn't seen an oil change in a LONG time. It was disgusting. I'm assuming the metal in her oil could be a result of neglecting oil changes.
Author:  audiboy86 [ Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Metal in engine oil
Metal in oil at all even with oil changes being neglected is a bad thing. It means that parts have been or are still being worn down and the neglected oil changes probably just made it worse. I would tell her to sell the POS asap and buy something else even if it is another POS with a good motor.
Author:  geordi [ Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Metal in engine oil
audiboy86 wrote:
Metal in oil at all even with oil changes being neglected is a bad thing. It means that parts have been or are still being worn down and the neglected oil changes probably just made it worse. I would tell her to sell the POS asap and buy something else even if it is another POS with a good motor.



This.

It is unfortunate but honestly... Get out now from that car. The mid-90s was when GM started engineering their vehicles just to the end of the warranty period. The idea was - if you did NOTHING other than put fuel into it, the car would drive for the 100k mile warranty... And seize up on mile 100,001, when it wasn't their problem anymore.

Neglecting the oil changes probably is a big reason why the engine is eating itself, but audiboy is correct: parts are wearing against each other. This is not going to get better, and it can (and usually does) get worse in very few miles.

Change the oil with 20w50-weight oil (standard oil will be fine) and put it up for sale on Craigslist. Give them a bill of sale that clearly states they are buying the vehicle (this is true for any sale) AS-IS, WHERE-IS, NO WARRANTY. They sign a copy you keep, you sign a copy they keep.
Author:  LMWatBullRun [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Metal in engine oil
Knowingly selling a vehicle that has a serious defect, like metal in the oil, without revealing that defect to the buyer is dishonest. I would call it fraud. Regardless of the legalities, which vary from state to state, that is creating bad karma for your self, and I think it is bad practice. There is enough dishonesty in the world without adding to it, and I don't want to look in the mirror and see a lying cheating, <bleep>.

*I* would either part the thing out, replace the motor and run it, or trade it/sell telling the buyer about the problem. Parting it out is a time consuming chore which is why I have never done it, but I am told you can make more money from that than simply selling it, depending on the vehicle.
Author:  painemann [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Metal in engine oil
ihdiesel wrote:
So I pulled the dipstick to check the oil level, it was low but still in between the lines. I noticed a metal flake on my dipstick. I checked a few more times and saw the same thing. I drove to work in my jetta leaving the jeep to deal with later. When I got home I pulled an oil sample out of the pan and found that there was a decent amount of nonferrous metal chunks/flakes. I know this is going to be bad.... Where do I start looking for the source of the flakes? any ideas?

The Liberty has 70,000 miles on it with about 2000 on the oil change. All was well before this happened


I would hate to be in your shoes!! I think I would consider trading it in and pawning it off on a dealership that has the funds and resources to deal with it. !!
Author:  MedicPatriot [ Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Metal in engine oil
LMWatBullRun wrote:
Knowingly selling a vehicle that has a serious defect, like metal in the oil, without revealing that defect to the buyer is dishonest. I would call it fraud. Regardless of the legalities, which vary from state to state, that is creating bad karma for your self, and I think it is bad practice. There is enough dishonesty in the world without adding to it, and I don't want to look in the mirror and see a lying cheating, <bleep>.

*I* would either part the thing out, replace the motor and run it, or trade it/sell telling the buyer about the problem. Parting it out is a time consuming chore which is why I have never done it, but I am told you can make more money from that than simply selling it, depending on the vehicle.


She won't be selling hers anyway. I will change the oil a bit sooner then usually and see if there is metal. It could have just been from all of the rust underneath, and on the drain plug.

As for the OP, that's a different story. I would be kind of scared with a vehicle that is worth that much, as opposed to my mothers old POS. I would look into this one for sure.
Author:  Auberon [ Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Metal in engine oil
As an alternative to the banana peels in the sump (hvy wt oil).......

Am I mistaken? - or aren't the bearings for the camshaft not slipper types - are they not journal bearings of aluminium as an integral part>
After the oil analysis that's already been suggested, I would start at the top and check camshaft end play firstly.
Then I would think about checking the condition of the bearing surfaces there....of course I could be wrong but this is another source of Aluminium.
There may be a rag on one bearing surface of the crankshaft that is tearing. these crankshafts are CI (cast iron) and it is feasible that if one were not conditioned properly (unlikely, I know) before final machining and surface grinding it may have distorted.
The days when a casting was thrown into a corner of the yard to mature are gone...everything is done in a rush and it is my experience with machining much CI that dimensional stability is attained over time and no amount of heat soak or whatever can circumvent the aging process of CI than time for stress relief.
One may've just slipped through the cracks and be tearing or be cracked......it may be that simple.

I would love to know if it is ferrous or not, first then I'd like to know what kind of Aluminium it is. That will tell you quite definitively where it comes from.
Depending on your findings - check for camshaft integrity (dye / X ray etc) true.....DTI when turned between centres or on V blocks....a bit of expertise need there.
If it is at the top end of the engine - not Good but not so bad either. It could be as simple as a lump of crud (coalesced carbon) scoring....who knows.

I agree with the chaps - I would stop driving until more info was gained.
Easy to say bit Don't stress - there WILL be a logical and likely relatively easy solution. :)
Good luck.
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