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I let the smoke out.
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=75545		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Rich [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  I let the smoke out.
Poop.

Last night....

After working on the truck all day, most of it cleaning off RTV from the trans pan, I got the unit bolted up and started the refill sequence per the FSM. I thought it dumb to only add 5qt and start checking, but the FSM made me do it. Did the filling sequence and checked the stick, looked good at the 5qt. Thought this was weird, but didn't question the FSM. (see a trend here?) Took her for a spin, ~3mi, and everything worked well, so I parked her for the night.

This morning...

Wife calls me at work telling me that everything was great through her commute till she dropped below highway speeds. While she cruised up to the stop light at the end of the off ramp, the truck started to grumble a bit, and "idled weird", and the engine light came on solid. She was sure to mention the CEL was NOT flashing, and that's why she still drove it. Good girl! From there on out (2 blocks) the truck acted like it was stuck in 3rd gear, needing high revs to move it. She parked the truck and went to work. While she was at work I shot a text to a friend asking how much fluid he replaced after dropping the pan. He said just south of 7qt, and came to that by measuring how much he had taken out... @$#% BRILLIANT! I should have done that rather than the FSM method of 5qt then top off with dip stick :(. Swung by the house on the way to my wife's work and checked what I had pulled out... just shy of 6.5qt plus a bunch of spill around the pan.

This afternoon/evening....

I shot out to my wife's work with three quarts of ATF+4 in hand since I knew it was at least 1.5qt low. Filled with 1.5qt, ran through the fill sequence per FSM, and got the truck moving as it should at idle. Dipstick was still showing full... as it was before. Drove the truck home on city streets for the 6.5mi back. About 1mi into the trip I came to a red light with a very slight incline. Truck required a bit of throttle, ~1500rpm, before it would start to move... then it was fine. When I came to the next light it started to buck a little as I came to a stop, again needing a bit more rev to get the truck moving. The next 3mi or so was fine, drove fairly well... then it started going south. Each stop I would need to manually drop the shifter to 1st, and that would get me, from what I could tell, 2nd, and would buck at each stop. Only 2mi from home and things were starting to get weird. In OD (allowing up to 5th) I was getting a surge in the trans and engine. The engine would rev as though there was no load, then the trans would catch up... kinda like slipping the clutch.... then I get to a stop light with a decent incline. Light went green, I revved and the truck started to roll backwards. Revved some more as I was getting close to the car behind and the truck let out a horrible screeching noise and the truck would roll at about 2mph at 3500rpm or so. The screeching kept going at 2mph while I cleared the intersection, and I immediately pulled over and popped the hood. Smoke was coming out of my trans dipstick, and it smelled like burning something. Wasn't quite clutch, wasn't quite brake, wasn't quite trans fluid...

Now....

The truck was towed back to the house, and is now sitting in the garage.

I have had slight shudder from the torque converter for a couple years now. Running GDE FT Eco w/non-F37 TCM. Fluid was Napa ATF+4, filters were changed with OEM from Mopar. I know I should have done the measure coming out, and put the same amount back in... but I am dumb sometimes and follow the FSM.

Any thoughts on if this is a torque converter, pump, clutch......?
Author:  naturist [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I let the smoke out.
Sounds like low fluid and bad transmission pump. Additional damage may have occurred to tranny as evidenced by burned smelling transmission fund.

The low power takeoffs and shuddering stop is evidence of low fluid and/or bad pump. A bad TC shows up as a shudder at 60 mph (or thereabouts) and is most easily found by cruising a hilly road under cruise control, as the throttle program plays right into the load/throttle conditions most likely to cause the shudder.

With the burned smelling transmission fluid in there now, I'd drain it, replace the filter, and refill (making sure there's enough in there this time), and I'd pray a lot, too.
Author:  Rich [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I let the smoke out.
I have had shudder since the day I bought the truck, been waiting for the TC to crap the bed... but it has lasted somehow.

I have been having drain back issues (needing rev's in netrual to get moving on cold starts, bucking and stalling at stops etc) so I think the pump was on the way out already. The fluid is still bright and doesn't smell burnt from what I am remembering...it was a long day. I will check that tonight.

When I pulled the 7 codes, the were (iirc)
Improper 1st Gear Ratio
Improper 4th Gear Ratio
Improper Reverse Ratio
Vehicle Speed Sensor out of range
2x Trans Control unit something
Trans pump low pressure

The loud screeching at high RPM with very little movement with smoke and smell is what has me thinking the clutches?
Author:  audiboy86 [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I let the smoke out.
Snatch it out and buy a remain replace it in the drive way and call it done. You will more then likely come out cheaper then having a transmission shop snatch it and rebuild it.
Author:  naturist [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I let the smoke out.
That it's had the shudder since day one shouldn't be a surprise: it's had a weak-ass TC since day one.
Author:  EAB [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I let the smoke out.
pull pan and make sure flat filter is fully seated in the seal. An air leak here can cause your symptoms including burnt clutches (worst case)
Author:  Rich [ Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I let the smoke out.
Without pulling the pan I am going to go on a limb and say I didn't get the filter o-ring fully seated.

Now, for those that understand the black magic of the auto transmission world, with the air being sucked into the system, what parts are next to go? The truck was surging for a brief moment before the last stop light that happened before it started to squeal while I attempted to clear the busy intersection. The surging was at constant RPM, but in retrospect it felt as though the pump was pressurizing, then loosing pressure, and re-pressurizing, wash/repeat. I was getting drain back issues for the past few months, with shutter over the past two years. The burning smell and smoke was immediately after the squeal session that lasted ~100yrds. The smoke was coming out of the dip-stick tube, but the fluid is still proper color and does not smell burned.

At this point I am attempting to triage the damage, and figure out where to go next. I already needed to replace the pump and TC, so that is fine with me. But, with the latest symptoms, what are the chances of having further damage, say to the clutches, requiring a 'professional' rebuild? I have no fears of digging into the truck, but an automatic trans is the one thing on a car/truck I have never torn into. The FSM leads me to believe it isn't too difficult, very few special tools seem to be called for.

So, is there a way to check to see if the clutches are in fact fried without fully disassembling the trans?

I may just end up with a JY trans installed, and rebuild/send out for rebuild mine, then swap them back out.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I let the smoke out.
I have no idea of your backstory but filling a fresh trans takes way more than 5 quarts of fluid, it usually takes a little work and very short test drives to get the fluid sucked in and pumped around to where it reads right.

Also what brand of pancake filter did you use?
Author:  papaindigo [ Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I let the smoke out.
For what it's worth my notes from watching the forum say "service fill" (new filters) is on the order of 8 qts and "overhaul fill" (drop tranny, new TC and such) is 14 qts. Some have reported being able to get more fluid out by parking on a slight upgrade and/or draining like overnight. In any case given the number of things the FSM is not quite right about if I was doing a filter change I'd get a big catch pan to catch all the fluid and measure what I took out so I could at least add that much back in.
Author:  geordi [ Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I let the smoke out.
You sometimes cannot trust the dipstick on these, if it hits the bottom of the pan.

Last time I did a transmission change on mine, it took NINE quarts before it drove properly and the dipstick read as just a little more than full. With only 5 quarts, you were SERIOUSLY under-filled and the transmission pump was sucking air. Very bad.

FYI: The drainback problems are NOT caused by fluid level, they are caused by a faulty (read as cheap) rubber flap check valve in the spin-on filter. Whenever the engine and transmission are off, the torque converter has the ability to drain its fluid level back toward the pan. In most vehicles, there is a suction against a check valve somewhere that prevents the air elsewhere in the system from migrating to the torque converter, which keeps it filled enough that the vehicle can move within 2 seconds of starting. Think of it like the vacuum storage box (and check valve) that feed the turbo. Without that, you would also need to wait for vacuum to build before the turbo would work properly.

The drainback problem is very common in the 545RFE transmission, and I am having a similar situation every so often on my VW Jetta TDI - it will feel sluggish and slipping when I want to make it move instantly after starting.

In your case... I'd start looking for another transmission at a junkyard. You've done a good job in killing yours, and I wouldn't trust it to survive even if you properly filled it up at this stage.
Author:  Rich [ Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I let the smoke out.
I will be getting a rebuild trans for the truck as soon as I get the garage space to drop the stocker out for the core. The filter o-ring was not fully seated thus my false dip-stick reading, coupled with a VERY low fluid content, and my driving it home did the trans in. Next filter change will go a bit different.

Filter kit, pancake and spin-on were both Mopar parts from the dealer shelf.

I was under the impression the drainback was caused partially by a faulty/failing pump. Even after starting it would stutter and often die while coming to a stop. TC wasn't disengaging at all, and I have been getting the classic shutter since I bought the truck in '09.

I am chalking this one up to an expensive lesson learned, but yes, I did feel that 5qt was PAINFULLY low for a new filter kit install.
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