possibly high temps

gidb36 · **Joined:** Thu May 09, 2013 6:20 pm **Posts:** 23

So today I was driving during rush hour in Omaha traffic and I had the AC on with my wife and mom in law. All was fine and dandy except for two things that concerned me.

1. At a stop sign with the car in drive and the ac on the idle would fluctuate 200 RpMs like it was being loaded an unloaded. This has never occurred except for this instance. Is this cause for concern?

2. During our commute to dinner we were in rush hour traffic and so accelerating and deceleration from 10 to 60 was common. I looked down at our exit and noticed the temp gauge past the middle and now at 3/4 travel. Is this normal? Should I worry? Thanks a bunch.

Gideon

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:23 am

1. I suspect AC compressor clutch cycling on/off which loads/unloads engine.
2. assuming a clean cooling system and use of HOAT antifreeze only then you probably need a new mechanical fan clutch. Search for Hayden 2905. By clean I mean a) no mixing of HOAT antifreeze with other stuff that can cause percipitation and clogging of the radiator and heater core and b) the assembly of AC condensor/intercooler/radiator between the grill and the engine is not clogged with leaves and such (flush from engine side with free flowing garden hose)

gidb36 · **Joined:** Thu May 09, 2013 6:20 pm **Posts:** 23

So is the temp gauge going up to 3/4 travel during hot conditions too hot for this engine? I have to admit I really hate dummy gauges that don't give you actual temp readings :banghead:

Previous owner has the hayden clutch for the fan which he included with the sale of the wehicle (a little checkov humor), however he removed it and replaced it with the OEM one due to a decrease in fuel economy from things being too cold?

How do I know I have the right coolant and no air pockets in my cooling system? I know when I had my Beetle TDI we had to use Volkswagen specific coolant for purposes of specific properties.

Thank in advance!

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:45 am

I've run A/C through heavy traffic jams in 100F+ days and never gotten the temp gauge over half way - even with the original fan clutch.

The only time I ever got the temp gauge over 1/2 way, was trying to accelerate up Colorado mountains.

there are other threads where for normal driving folks have removed the fan completely without overheating.

The only way a Hayden clutch would decrease economy is if it's engaging too much - which means things are too hot.

(too cold would be a function of the thermostat - if it's working the radiator can't overcool)

I'm not sure how to verify the cooling system - but I'd start by pressure checking and then completely flushing the radiator - refill with the Mopar.

There's a root cause somewhere and it's not the traffic jam.

(Gauge from Kap's thread and GDE)

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:05 pm

Several things:
1. 3/4 on the gauge is not "too" hot but under normal circumstances (i.e. other than towing a heavy load in too high a gear uphill in hot temps) you shouldn't get that high.
2. as ATXKJ the temp gauge does provide decent readings but as with all modern vehicles I've seen it's not marked in degrees. NOTE - the readings ATXKJ posted are for a correctly calibrated CRD temp gauge. It's not impossible that you have a temp gauge calibrated for the gasser, see http://www.greendieselengineering.com/f ... st/19.page in which case you can see 3/4 readings pulling 2,000 lbs of boat with the AC on on a dead flat N. Florida road, been there done that. There are only 2 ways I know of to find out if you have a miscalibrated gauge a) go to the dealer with a copy of the TSB (if you want a copy email me) and DEMAND they check the calibration (that's what I had to do including noting I'd pay for the 15 minutes of labor if the gauge was not miscalibrated - I did not have to pay but I do hate service writers) or b) spend $10-20 to get an IR temp gun and when you hit 3/4 take a temp reading on the tstat housing (that reading should approximate the gauge reading).
3. it's not impossible your temp sending unit (back of tstat housing) has an issue but it has no moving parts so that's unlikely but not impossible. IR temp check will help determine this.
4. Hayden clutch should start to engage at an air temp off the radiator (e.g. stuff in front of the engine) of 170 F or about 30 F below actual engine temp which is right at the beginning of a heat rise and well before a function OEM clutch starting to engage at ca. 195F air temp. Put the Hayden on and drive; if your temp gauge doesn't get to slightly left of dead vertical you will likely see a 10% mpg hit and need a new tstat (NOTE 80+F with AC on may mask a failing tstat but cooler weather and less load on the engine won't). See CRD Tech section for handy 2 piece fan shroud mod that makes access easier.
5. HOAT antifreeze has at most just a slight orange tint when in a clear or translucent plastic jug. If it has any other or more color it's not HOAT. When in doubt assume it's not HOAT. The lower radiator hose is below the radiator drain so it's hard to do a complete drain. Best bet is 4-6 drain/fill with demineralized water/run engine for 3-4 minutes/repeat until drained fluid comes reasonably clear. See viewtopic.php?f=98&t=56398 for handy drain tool. To drain and refill a) on cold engine open coolant tank cap; b) open lower radiator drain plug; c) wait until coolant tank drains then open valve on top passenger side of radiator; d) when done draining close lower radiator drain plug; e) refill from coolant tank until fluid comes out of that upper valve; f) "burp" upper radiator hose and add fluid as needed then close the upper valve; g) complete coolant tank fill until ca. 1" above midline. At this point if you are doing a fill/drain cycle repeat with a brief engine run then briefly run the engine and repeat. If on final fill in step e) add ca. 6.5-6.6 qts of straight HOAT and complete the fill with demineralized water; then once the system is sealed do 2-3 drive cycles from cold to hot to purge air from the system which will lower the level in the coolant tank a bit but generally not so much as to have to add coolant.

If you want to check for sediment in the system you can lightly back flush the heater core by pulling the inflow/outflow lines and using a garden hose at LOW pressure. There is no valve in that line so no need to have the heater "on" although there is no harm in doing so.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:44 pm

just to add to this thread

Thanks papa - I knew there was a reflash - but I didn't realize it changed that much

gidb36 · **Joined:** Thu May 09, 2013 6:20 pm **Posts:** 23

Impressive! Thanks you all soon much for the tricks of the trade. I'm currently visiting the parents in law but once I get home I will take a thurough look at all of my cooling system. Curiously the gauge since the incident has not gone beyond half again even with ac on.

Based on those pics I'm confused now. Since I have an eco tune from gde which gauge parameters are on my car? Or rather does each pic of the gauge represent the gas and diesel versions and If so which is which.

thermorex · **Posted:** Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:48 am

I wouldn't exclude a partially opened thermostat, I had similar issues when my thermostat went bad, was summer and long uphills would heat the engine to the point the electric fan would start, since thermostat didn't open all way. After replacing it, the gauge wouldn't budge from 1/2 and no electric fan started anymore.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:36 am

First gauge pic shows proper readings for a KJ CRD; second gauge pic shows readings if the gauge in a KJ CRD is incorrectly calibrated (e.g. calibrated for the gas engine IIRC)

Cribbed from the TSB "The customer may notice that the engine temperature gauge may indicate that the engine temperature is high. In hot ambient temperatures, and under certain driving conditions of extended uphill driving while towing a trailer, the engine temperature indicator may indicate slightly above the 3/4 normal operating temperature mark on the temperature gauge (but below the engine hot temperature markings). This condition may be caused by an incorrect calibration of the of the engine temperature gauge. New CCN module software corrects the old engine temperature gauge calibration." As far as I know this only applies to the 05. I can say that I experienced the 3/4 reading pulling a 2,000 lb boat with the AC on along a dead flat N. Florida road. After recalibration I've not had the problem.

gidb36 · **Joined:** Thu May 09, 2013 6:20 pm **Posts:** 23

So I got home and grabbed my dad's IR laser temp gun and warmed the beast up. I could measure the temp at 1/2 travel of the gauge at the thermostat housing at 198 at its hottest point. So based on this observation I would argue I have an incorrectly calibrated gauge. Is this observation reasonable?

Coolant appears reddish orange which would lead me to think it's genuine MOPAR coolant. appears clear with no precipitate. I suppose my next corse of action would be a trip to the dealer correct?

Crap

papaindigo · **Posted:** Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:24 pm

1. I would not say it's incorrectly calibrated at this point. If you take a careful look at the 2 illustrations you will note that they don't significantly diverge until you get up around 5/8ths or 3/4s. With either calibration 198F is going to be slightly left of vertical. On the other hand if you get up to like 3/4s and the IR reading is like 217F instead of like 230F then your gauge needs calibration. I can tell you when my gauge was miscalibrated it would hit 3/4s quite quickly under the load described. Note that with a correctly calibrated gauge 217F is barely past dead vertical which is something you would hardly notice.
2. that color sounds ok but it's not so much color that matters as intensity of the color. If it looks like regular orange Gatorade it's not HOAT if it looks like extremely watered down Gatorade then it's HOAT.

If you do tackle the dealer you may have to force your way past the ticket writer and speak to the service manager. Under no circumstances do you want them to waste any of your $s doing cooling system diagnostics given that the question at hand is simply whether or not the gauge is correctly calibrated. The TSB procedure is pasted below and as you can see, Steps 6 and 8, if the gauge is correctly calibrated the DRBIII will say so. If the gauge is incorrectly calibrated the TSB should be free, if it's not correctly calibrated or they want charge for calibration it's like 15 minutes of labor and no shop supplies.
REPAIR PROCEDURE: NOTE: Before proceeding verify that the DRBIII® software version is at level 62.2.
1. Connect the DRBIII® to the vehicle Data Link Connector (DLC)
2. Turn the ignition switch to the "ON" position.
3. Using the DRBIII® scan tool recalibrate the instrument temperature gauge.
a. Select "DRBIII® Standalone"
b. Select "1998 - 2006 Diagnostics"
c. Select "All (Except Below)"
d. Select "Body Interior"
e. Select "Electro/Mech Cluster (MIC)"
f. Select "Miscellaneous"
g. Select "Recalibrate Temp Gauge" option.
4. If the recalibration of the instrument cluster was successful, the RBIII® will display the following message: "Recalibration Successful".
5. If the version level of the original instrument cluster software allows recalibration, but the recalibration of the instrument cluster was NOT successful, then the DRBIII® will display one of the following messages: "Recalibration Failed" or "Write To Memory Address Failed". If one of these messages occurs repeat the above steps.
6. If the instrument cluster has already been recalibrated to the correct software version level, then the DRBIII® will display the following message: "Gauge Already Recalibrated - Press Any Key to Exit".
7. The DRBIII® will display the following message if the original instrument clustersoftware version level is not the correct version level for recalibration: "MIC Software Version Incorrect - Press Any Key to Exit".
8. Verify that the instrument cluster engine temperature gauge has been recalibrated by selecting the "Recalibrate Temp Gauge" option again. The DRBIII® should display the following message: "Gauge Already Recalibrated - Press Any Key to Exit".
9. Turn the vehicle ignition switch to the "OFF" position
10. Disconnect the DRBIII® from the vehicle DLC.

gidb36 · **Joined:** Thu May 09, 2013 6:20 pm **Posts:** 23

After a month or so of overlooking i've narrowed the symptoms down. I tried my best to get the gauge to get back up in that 3/4 range to no avail until just recently.

During the warmer summer days I will turn the AC with a fan setting of 2 on to accommodate the wife's climate requirements. At this time during slow driving the cars coolant will actually begin to climb all the way to 3/4 before sticking to around there. During steady state cruise this does not happen as there is enough air to cycle through the radiator and cooling package. Also at stop lights the AC Compressor will cycle on and every 10 seconds based on what I hear from the engine loading and off loading. I verified gauge function and accuracy through a laser temp gun but nothing else has been done to diagnose. Thermostat temp at 3/4 travel on the gauge reads 230 which puts the gauge at proper calibration.

Again any other time the temp gauge is at a nice solid just before the halfway mark.

I had a basic AC charge gauge I got from a while back and I check system pressure and it showed it was a bit a high but I wasn't sure if I could believe it.

So thermostat troubles? Is there a fan not kicking on when it should? how about a AC overcharge?

Thanks again for any response.

Gideon

CATCRD · **Posted:** Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:10 pm

My advice would be to put the Hayden clutch back on and try again.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:36 am

Is the electric fan coming on?
At 230 deg f the electric radiator fan should have been running at full speed.

gidb36 · **Joined:** Thu May 09, 2013 6:20 pm **Posts:** 23

I didn't notice the fan coming on.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:16 pm

I wonder if you have 2 separate but similar in outcome problems.
1. The OEM mechanical fan clutch is notorious for being failure prone and if it's working engaging way to far into a heat rise curve. Fan clutches engage based on the air temp off all the "stuff" in front of the engine which is, per Hayden, typically ca. 30F below coolant temp. The Hayden 2905 is calibrated to engage at ca. 170F or around 200+F at the thermostat housing. IIRC the OEM fan engages at a temp that's some 25F or more higher.
2. The electrical fan, just behind the grill, is a 2 speed (low/high) fan that I think engages based on AC sensors (don't ask me which one(s)) and coolant temp. The FSM is a bit murky on this and clearly incorrect when it speaks to a battery temp sensor as such a sensor does not exist on the KJ CRD. In any case it runs quite a bit when the AC is on and you are driving around town.

If you had the hood up with the engine running when you read 230F at the tstat housing and did NOT hear the electric fan howling at high speed AND experience the gale of air the mechanical fan moves when the clutch is engaged then neither fan is working properly. If that's the case step 1 reinstall the Hayden you already have, you should do that anyway, (no way will it cost you mpg or "over" cool - the only possible way it could over cool is if your tstat is bad) and 2 check the function of the electric fan. I'm not the best on how to do #2 but you can start by going to the power distribution center (box in front of battery) and a) check the F2 fuse to see if it is blown; b) if not I suspect the relays are the same so you could try pulling relay R36 (viscous heater - NOTE it would be worth checking to see if the viscous heater clutch is disengaged at normal engine operating temp as I wonder if a stuck on clutch could cause some overheating) and swap it in for relay R40 and see if that kicks the electric fan on in low speed mode. If so replace both electric fan relays (FYI you can leave the viscous heater relay unplugged and get a bit of an mpg boost - the only function of the viscous heater is the get a bit of an early "boost" to coolant temp primarily for the benefit of cabin heat in northern winter months as diesels are slow to warm up; frankly the same thing can better be accomplished by plugging the block heater in and powering it up ca. 2 hrs before start up in temps below ca. 20F). If not you need to trace wiring from the electric fan back to a connector and see if the fan will run off direct battery power - if not replace fan - if it will look for bad wiring.

Bottom line is my current opinion is you have fan(s) problems. I am of course assuming you have not coolant leak problems.

gidb36 · **Joined:** Thu May 09, 2013 6:20 pm **Posts:** 23

Update:

I've now replaced the original fan clutch with the Hayden Severe duty. Boy even without the car at temp that thing is sure flowing a ton of air.

Upon completion of that task I decided to take a peak at the relay and fuse box (why I didn't look at this first confirms my stupidity). Sure enough the F2 40 amp fuse had blown. SO I replaced that with a fresh one and hope these two things fix the problems completely.

I sure hope the couple times the temp gauge did climb to 3/4 didn't cause a warped head or something? I suppose there is no way of knowing unless I start to see some oil or coolant consumption or mixing right?

Thank you all soo much for the help you have provided. This place is just as valuable as TDICLUB and I only hope I can pass on the knowledge to the next person as well as you guys have.

I will attempt to test this fix today to see if the problem has been solved and report back a bit later.

Gideon

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:39 am

papaindigo wrote:

5. HOAT antifreeze has at most just a slight orange tint when in a clear or translucent plastic jug. If it has any other or more color it's not HOAT. When in doubt assume it's not HOAT.
.

HOAT coolant is clear and then dyed.

The MOPAR HOAT coolant is either dyed pink or orange,Ford's HOAT coolant is dyed a light yellow as well as Zerex GO5.Safety Kleen Khameleon coolant which is also HOAT is dyed green.

Color means nothing these days as far as coolant goes as they all start clear,gotta read the bottle.

gidb36 · **Joined:** Thu May 09, 2013 6:20 pm **Posts:** 23

Cars appears to be cooling very well now with ac at full blast. Two concerns:

1. The mechanical fan is now much more audible all the time. It's as if the clutch never disengages. Is this normal?

2. Should I worry about possible head warp from those short hot periods of time?

papaindigo · **Posted:** Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:49 pm

1. on a cold engine with the ignition OFF see if you can spin the fan by hand. There may be a slight amount of resistance but the fan should spin fairly easily and continue rotating a bit once started. If there is lots of resistance and/or the fan stops abruptly you might have a bad clutch, not impossible but they don't cost all that much on Amazon, or IIRC if the clutch was stored in the "wrong" position it can take a day or two for the internal fluid to get back to the proper place so the clutch works correctly. Do you have the OEM metal fan (5 large "paddle" blades) or something else? I don't recall ever really hearing the clutched OEM metal fan but when I had a fixed fan (no clutch) I could sure hear it. The nylon OEM fan might be quieter.

2. no not unless you develop mysterious coolant loss that cannot be located externally using UV dye. 230F is hot but not overheated.

possibly high temps

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