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Low Oil Pressure, Water in Fuel, Fuel Level Empty, No A/C!
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Author:  paqclan [ Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Low Oil Pressure, Water in Fuel, Fuel Level Empty, No A/C!
I am just about out of my mind trying to hunt down an electrical problem with no luck, and would appreciate any advice. I've got an 05 Liberty CRD, and when it is hot outside, I get three lights that come on at the same time (with the audible "bing") on the instrument cluster. They actually come on in sequence about 1 second apart: Water in Fuel, Low Oil Pressure, and the fuel gauge goes to zero. At the same time, the A/C, that had been blowing cold, gets warm. On very hot days, it happens right when I start the car and won't cycle off. On mild days, it comes on an off. On cold days, it doesn't seem to be a problem, and the lights never come on. I haven't been able to detect a pattern as to when they come on, other than it is more sensitive when it is hot, or after the engine has heated up.

I would replace the sensors, but the A/C problem seems to be linked. Recently replaced the battery and generator so it's not a low voltage issue. I just replaced the Front Control Module (FCM), as all of those signals pass through the FCM according to the service manual, but that didn't solve it. I checked the connectors between the FCM and the ECM as well. All look fine.

Has anyone had anything similar happen with their KJ? It's driving me crazy, and I am melting here in NM without the A/C. Not to mention the constant "bing" as the lights cycle on and off. I'm on a limited budget (arent's we all) and I don't know what to try next.

Help.
Author:  flash7210 [ Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Low Oil Pressure, Water in Fuel, Fuel Level Empty, No A/
I would start by unplugging the water in fuel sensor and see if it still does it.
Author:  Billwill [ Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Low Oil Pressure, Water in Fuel, Fuel Level Empty, No A/
I agree that you should first check the water in fuel sensor.

If you are sure that your air con is fully loaded with refrigerant....you can jumper pins 30 and 87 inside the AC Clutch Relay socket to turn the AC on permanently.....do not run the compressor if refrigerant is low!

This is a temporary fix obviously to help out in the heat! :wink:

This relay gets energized via the Auto Shut Down Relay...which also controls a lot of other functions. Fuses 6 and 16 in the PDC under the hood may also be loose.

I would try swap out the ASD relay with an identical one next to it to see if the problem still exists. :)
Author:  Hexus [ Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Low Oil Pressure, Water in Fuel, Fuel Level Empty, No A/
Just replace both relays for about $30 and see what that does. They need to be replaced every 4 years anyways.

ASD relay is a known failure point.
Author:  paqclan [ Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Low Oil Pressure, Water in Fuel, Fuel Level Empty, No A/
OK. Got a little delayed due to summer travel for play and work, then I waited a little bit to change the oil so I could also change the oil pressure sensor. I think I made some progress but I'm not out of the woods yet. Looks like there were multiple problems here and I think I solved one of them.

I have now replaced all ASD relays, the water-in-fuel sensor, and the oil pressure sensor. I am convinced it was primarily the water-in-fuel sensor that was making the system go crazy based on my previous troubleshooting. Now the behavior is more predictable now, so that's good I guess.

Here's what's happening now. After the engine has heated up, when I turn to the right while driving, the A/C goes out and all the lights come on. When I turn left again, the A/C blows cold and everything is fine. I think focusing on the A/C system is next. Maybe the A/C high pressure sensor or the A/C low pressure sensor are suspect. Maybe the pressures in the A/C system are off.

Not sure where to attack next. Any thoughts?
Author:  papaindigo [ Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Low Oil Pressure, Water in Fuel, Fuel Level Empty, No A/
For the :2cents: or less that my opinion on "things electrical" is worth I think you have a "chaffed" wire problem that's triggered the right turn. Unfortunately the fact that it appears to be a right turn problem doesn't narrow down the location much.

I would be curious if the problem occurs with the vehicle on a lift when the steering is turned to the right. Might narrow things down a bit as the suspension would be unloaded on a lift as opposed to "loaded" when driving.

Of course it could be a plug that's a tiny bit loose or corroded which is aggravated by a right turn. However, I don't know the wiring well enough to know where a plug that relates to the several symptoms might be. Just a thought though you might email Keith at GDE and ask his advice.

Locally my solution would be All American Auto & Electric. They are wizards, local dealers use them for unsolvable problems, at finding weird electrical problems. Perhaps there is some similar entity near you.
Author:  EAB [ Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Low Oil Pressure, Water in Fuel, Fuel Level Empty, No A/
The 'water in fuel' sensor and oil pressure ensor share a sensor ground, the fuel pump module is listed on it also. On this sensor ground is also the ambient temp sensor, which, when the circuit goes open, reads -40* and shuts the a/c down. The circuit # is K300 and has several splices and connectors. I'll put a pic of the schematic that I found in the link in my sig.
Author:  geordi [ Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Low Oil Pressure, Water in Fuel, Fuel Level Empty, No A/
I was going to suggest a grounding problem too - loose / multiple grounds have been known to cause all manner of havoc in an engine.

Your best bet at the moment is to attempt to trace the ground from the WIF sensor based on the wiring schematics in the service manual download - try to match up the location and wire colors, maybe you will get lucky and trace it right past the damaged wire. Failing that... Finding the specific wires that are *supposed* to be grounded, and making local grounds for each of them shouldn't annoy the computer much (they are supposed to be grounded anyway) and could also solve the problem for you.

The havoc is that you have a missing ground, so the power in these circuits is "back feeding" across another of the linked circuits that isn't active at that time (like the oil pressure or WIF sensors, since you are using the AC) and looking for a source of ground. By doing that, it is energizing things that shouldn't be, which is throwing the computer into a tizzy.
Author:  paqclan [ Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Low Oil Pressure, Water in Fuel, Fuel Level Empty, No A/
Thanks for the replys.
papaindigo wrote:
I would be curious if the problem occurs with the vehicle on a lift when the steering is turned to the right. Might narrow things down a bit as the suspension would be unloaded on a lift as opposed to "loaded" when driving.

I tried just turning the wheel to the right while parked and did not have the problems when I did that. It is definatley when moving, and while hot, and while turning to the right that aggrivates it the most. It spuriously occurs other times as well.
EAB wrote:
The 'water in fuel' sensor and oil pressure ensor share a sensor ground, the fuel pump module is listed on it also. On this sensor ground is also the ambient temp sensor, which, when the circuit goes open, reads -40* and shuts the a/c down. The circuit # is K300 and has several splices and connectors. I'll put a pic of the schematic that I found in the link in my sig.

geordi wrote:
I was going to suggest a grounding problem too - loose / multiple grounds have been known to cause all manner of havoc in an engine.

I will work on the grounding issue, probably adding grounds at the Front Control Module, and if that doesn't work, at the sensors that go to the front control module. (Water in fuel, fuel level sender, oil pressure, AC High Pressure, and AC Low pressure). Will update this post when I (hopefully) have some success.

PS - I have the GDE Eco Tune now, which allowed me to plug the MAF sensor back in, which may have helped a bit as well.
Author:  EAB [ Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Low Oil Pressure, Water in Fuel, Fuel Level Empty, No A/
paqclan wrote:
Thanks for the replys.
I will work on the grounding issue, probably adding grounds at the Front Control Module, and if that doesn't work, at the sensors that go to the front control module. (Water in fuel, fuel level sender, oil pressure, AC High Pressure, and AC Low pressure). Will update this post when I (hopefully) have some success.

PS - I have the GDE Eco Tune now, which allowed me to plug the MAF sensor back in, which may have helped a bit as well.


The circuit grounds through the Front Control Module, not directly to ground.
Author:  Billwill [ Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Low Oil Pressure, Water in Fuel, Fuel Level Empty, No A/
What is a "Front Control Module"? :?
Author:  EAB [ Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Low Oil Pressure, Water in Fuel, Fuel Level Empty, No A/
Billwill wrote:
What is a "Front Control Module"? :?


The official explanation:
"The Front Control Module (FCM) (2)(FRONT CONTROL MODULE) is located in the engine compartment below the Power Distribution Center (PDC). The FCM's primary function is to define communications between electronic controllers and move data collected from the multiple controllers to the host controller for processing using Controller Area Network (CAN), Programmable Communication Interface (PCI) buss or J1850. The FCM does not contain any drivers, and therefore does not directly operate any vehicle components."
Author:  Billwill [ Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Low Oil Pressure, Water in Fuel, Fuel Level Empty, No A/
EAB wrote:
Billwill wrote:
What is a "Front Control Module"? :?


The official explanation:
"The Front Control Module (FCM) (2)(FRONT CONTROL MODULE) is located in the engine compartment below the Power Distribution Center (PDC). The FCM's primary function is to define communications between electronic controllers and move data collected from the multiple controllers to the host controller for processing using Controller Area Network (CAN), Programmable Communication Interface (PCI) buss or J1850. The FCM does not contain any drivers, and therefore does not directly operate any vehicle components."



Thanks....I could not find that info...must be for the 2006 CRD I presume which is when they started using a CAN bus I believe. :)
Author:  CATCRD [ Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Low Oil Pressure, Water in Fuel, Fuel Level Empty, No A/
Actually I think in the US it was only for the 2005, because the existing controllers were not smart enough to talk to each other. I know my 2005 has the FCM.
Author:  paqclan [ Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Low Oil Pressure, Water in Fuel, Fuel Level Empty, No A/
Wow. Its been a long time and I haven't updated this thread. I got a bit sidetracked with another problem, but solved this one in the process. My other problem was a slipped timing belt that broke a bunch of rockers. Tore the top off and replaced everything I could replace while I was in there. Put it all back together and it didn't turn over. Tried everything under the sun, and finally broke down and took it to the dealer. What they found is that the ECM was bad. The ECM wasn't registering the position of Cylinder 1, so it didn't know when to inject fuel. No gas, no boom, no fun. So they replaced the ECM and it started right up. AND GUESS WHAT? All the flashing lights, oil pressure lights, Water in fuel lights, and everything went away too. And my A/C blows like a freezer now. Didn't know it could blow that cold.

I know they all say if your car is running, your ECM is good, but I can tell you for a fact that sometimes, that is not the case. A new ECM fixed all these weird problems.

Sorry it took so long to post the solution to this.
Author:  JDaPP [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Low Oil Pressure, Water in Fuel, Fuel Level Empty, No A/
So I have this exact problem. I mean I couldn't have written with a single difference.

Couple of questions:
- when I replace the ECM I am guessing I will need to get dealer to flash it? Can I just take the ECM in or I am assuming the entire vehicle must go in?

- I have GDE eco, assume I will need that reflashed as well?

-Anyone have this exact problem and have a different solution?

- any concern with driving it while I wait to get it fixed?

- what should I expect to pay for ecm, I am seeing $600 on mopar parts sites. The ones on eBay safe or too big a risk? 3.7l and 2.8 ecm the same?
Thanks.
Author:  cerich [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Low Oil Pressure, Water in Fuel, Fuel Level Empty, No A/
JDaPP wrote:
So I have this exact problem. I mean I couldn't have written with a single difference.

Couple of questions:
- when I replace the ECM I am guessing I will need to get dealer to flash it? Can I just take the ECM in or I am assuming the entire vehicle must go in?

- I have GDE eco, assume I will need that reflashed as well?

-Anyone have this exact problem and have a different solution?

- any concern with driving it while I wait to get it fixed?

- what should I expect to pay for ecm, I am seeing $600 on mopar parts sites. The ones on eBay safe or too big a risk? 3.7l and 2.8 ecm the same?
Thanks.


call keith at GDE
Author:  JDaPP [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Low Oil Pressure, Water in Fuel, Fuel Level Empty, No A/
Already corresponding via email. Would still like to know if this has happened to anyone else and thoughts?
Author:  JDaPP [ Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Low Oil Pressure, Water in Fuel, Fuel Level Empty, No A/
Have been talking to Keith and he recommended checking fcm and ecm. I checked both and all wiring looks good and connectors looked clean and tight. I also changed fuses 14 and 16 and checked all other fuses. Also looked around at all other wires in the engine bay and no issues noted.

Contacted Paqclan who had same problem. He said he did replace fcm but it did not fix the problem although I have seen some other threads where fcm change was successful. Not sure what to do now, I am thinking change fcm followed by ecm just based off of price difference between the two, but not sure sure what best option is. I fully intend to keep working with Keith but I just wanted to see if others had any thoughts.

Thanks
Author:  Maver1ck [ Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Low Oil Pressure, Water in Fuel, Fuel Level Empty, No A/
i replaced the ECM and FCM and no luck it has good ground and 12v B+ going to it but no 5+ volt out but the ground out is good :banghead: :furious:

the Front Control Module (Gateway module)controls the fuel level sensor, low oil pressure light, A/C pressure sensor, generator/alternator field control, and Water In Fuel Sensor
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