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 Post subject: 2006 CRD - Is it a fuel pump problem - or???
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:32 am 
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2006 Liberty purchased a couple months ago with 149K miles. Seller says (and confirmed by service records) that the timing belt, water pump and related items were replaced at 125K miles. This is my #2 CRD. I like its twin brother so much I bought this one and thought I got another good one until this:

So I'm driving down I-15 on the 4th of July at 70 mph with cruise control on (road is level, not towing), and everything's fine until . . . I hear a noise (not a loud bang or thump, more like grinding) from under the hood, and immediately it loses power. I bump it to neutral, engine goes to idle, I stab the throttle a couple times and it revs weakly to about 2800 rpm. I look back and see black smoke in the mirror. Start steering toward the emergency lane with the engine idling, and in about 10 seconds, the engine quits - as if I turned the key off - no seizing or more noise. I get it towed back to my shop.

Fresh oil change about 100 mi ago, the oil is not even black yet. Oil level is fine. No leaks or drips. Half tank of fuel. My first guess is that the turbo bearings seized - but with the intake hose off I can reach the turbine wheel and it spins with no effort, no slack, no end play, and runs true. I point a compressed air nozzle at it, and it will spin effortlessly - so - its not the turbo. I can peek down the oil filler tube and see the cam turning when the starter is engaged, so the timing belt is still intact.

Try a restart at the shop, and the starter cranks it fine, but will not even act like its going to start - no fuel. I try the hand pump on the fuel filter, and feels like its hard against fuel, not pumping air. I even crack a line coming off the fuel filter, and get fuel out when I pump.

I'm at the limit of my experience and intuition - I don't know what to suspect is the real culprit - the high pressure fuel pump maybe?? Ouch!! HELP GUYS . . . .


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 Post subject: Re: 2006 CRD - Is it a fuel pump problem - or???
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:55 am 
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Black smoke means more fuel than needed for the air flow into the engine.

So it's either excess fuel, or insufficient air. I would not look at the fuel pump first, as it is unlikely to have overpressurized the injectors. Simply from a conceptual standpoint, I would look at things like the intercooler hoses, the intercooler itself, the FCV, basically anything that could restrict airflow.

Given the fact that it won't start at all now, I think I would look at the FCV first.

But the real question to be answered first is- what codes do you get? THat will help more than anything.

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 Post subject: Re: 2006 CRD - Is it a fuel pump problem - or???
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:30 am 
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The black smoke indicates a lack of air or too much fuel. You can check to see what the fuel pressure at the rail is. You can tear apart the FCV (flow control valve) and check to see if the butterfly valve is open (if it's open, then leave the FCV unplugged and try to start again). The EGR could be stuck open.

If the above checks out ok, then I would look at the rockers next. I just replaced the rockers on a CRD with 125k miles. Two of the rockers had the rollers jammed way down to the point where the cam was wearing into the rocker arm. It was smoking badly, but would run. Cylinder #1 had a ton of soot built up in it and when I pushed down on the valve, it broke some loose. The chunk of soot then prevented the engine from turning over (no clearance) when I tried to crank it by hand.

Here is a picture of the rocker: Image

Here is a picture of the head: Image

Here is a pic of the piston: Image

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 Post subject: Re: 2006 CRD - Is it a fuel pump problem - or???
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:19 am 
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Lucky catch, I wouldn't see that rocker holding much longer. Btw, where was that rocker located, which cylinder?

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 Post subject: Re: 2006 CRD - Is it a fuel pump problem - or???
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:04 pm 
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Could be rockers, could be a number of things, but I'd check the easier stuff first. PITA things like getting at rockers I leave till I have ruled out the easy ones.

What codes do you get?

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Grid power- the one true essential

2005 Liberty CRD- ARP studs, Fumoto, Hayden FC, inline Tstat, ETechno 7v GP, Platinum P1.
1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
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 Post subject: Re: 2006 CRD - Is it a fuel pump problem - or???
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:47 pm 
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He just dropped this off at my house and I am trying to figure it out now. I am going to start reading through the service manual, but while I'm looking I'll ask a few questions.

I have read about people testing fuel pressure on these, is this done by taking a reading from the sensor? Or is there a port somewhere that I can put a guage on? (If any of my guages will read high enough)

I have tried testing the injector pulse with a noid light to no avail, no signal seems to be going to them. Would this point to a bad crank position sensor? Where is that located and can I test it?

We are suspicious of the CP3, but I tend to think that wouldn't fail at this mileage.

I am somewhat suspicious of the rocker arms, as if the belt jumped time, but the belt was recently changed, so that would mean that whoever did the belt didn't do it correctly.

I'm going to keep plugging away, I'll keep posts of what else I find.

Checked the following: no DTCs, swapped ASD relay, checked FCV, verified fuel at filter and primer pump pushes fuel through.


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 Post subject: Re: 2006 CRD - Is it a fuel pump problem - or???
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:34 am 
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If it idles OK, do a MAF test. That is an easy way see if the rockers may be failing.

DOC

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 Post subject: Re: 2006 CRD - Is it a fuel pump problem - or???
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:53 am 
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Doesn't idle, doesn't start


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 Post subject: Re: 2006 CRD - Is it a fuel pump problem - or???
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:00 pm 
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So no codes at all?

Does it not crank, or not fire?

If it cranks, what is the battery voltage while cranking?

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Grid power- the one true essential

2005 Liberty CRD- ARP studs, Fumoto, Hayden FC, inline Tstat, ETechno 7v GP, Platinum P1.
1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
Case 580B


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 Post subject: Re: 2006 CRD - Is it a fuel pump problem - or???
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:31 pm 
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Nope, no codes at all, cranks good, haven't checked voltage while cranking. Seems to either be getting no fuel, or has lost compression across the board. Made a fitting out of an old fuel filter head to check that the pump is drawing vacuum (per section 14-45 of the shop manual) Will also see if I can find an adapter to do a compression check.


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 Post subject: Re: 2006 CRD - Is it a fuel pump problem - or???
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:44 pm 
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While cranking, observe the cam through the oil filler... is it turning? It is possible it jumped time. If compression does not seem right, or it does not sound right, chances are that it jumped time or has a slipped or broken timing belt.

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 Post subject: Re: 2006 CRD - Is it a fuel pump problem - or???
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:59 pm 
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Mystery solved. The growling noise was due to the tip of the injector blowing off and banging around in the cylinder. The smoke was from said injector relieving the fuel rail of its 20,000 psi, and the no-start was because the broken injector prevented any buildup of pressure. Now to assess the damage done to cylinder/valves/head. Anyone else seen this happen before?


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 Post subject: Re: 2006 CRD - Is it a fuel pump problem - or???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:45 am 
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You didn't hear any blow-by on that cylinder when trying to start it?

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 Post subject: Re: 2006 CRD - Is it a fuel pump problem - or???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:42 am 
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only the nozzle of the injector broke, there was no blow by, the body of the injector was still sealed against the head.


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 Post subject: Re: 2006 CRD - Is it a fuel pump problem - or???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:00 am 
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I would probably pull the head and inspect that cylinder as well as the glow plug in it.

Is it upgraded steel or the original ceramic?

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 Post subject: Re: 2006 CRD - Is it a fuel pump problem - or???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:50 pm 
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We have new injectors for $350 if you need one. That is not a common failure mode on this engine.

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 Post subject: Re: 2006 CRD - Is it a fuel pump problem - or???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:16 pm 
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for those who are interested:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: 2006 CRD - Is it a fuel pump problem - or???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:21 pm 
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Crush washer still in the intake?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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Silver 2006 KJ 2.8L CRD Limited:
GDE ECO Tune / Fumoto Valve / E-Tecno GX3123 7v Glow Plugs / 2nd Gen Fuel Head / Mishimoto RED Hoses / Rockers/Lifters @ 114k / Hayden FC + 11 Blade Nylon / Sears P1 Battery / Transgo 45RFE-HD2 Reprogramming Kit / Timken Front Bearings


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 Post subject: Re: 2006 CRD - Is it a fuel pump problem - or???
PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:50 pm 
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Hexus wrote:
I would probably pull the head and inspect that cylinder as well as the glow plug in it.

Is it upgraded steel or the original ceramic?

X2 on the head removal and inspection. That CANNOT be good for the valves.

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Grid power- the one true essential

2005 Liberty CRD- ARP studs, Fumoto, Hayden FC, inline Tstat, ETechno 7v GP, Platinum P1.
1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
Case 580B


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 Post subject: Re: 2006 CRD - Is it a fuel pump problem - or???
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:46 pm 
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Update,

could not remove the tip of the injector, so we decided to pull the cylinder head. Turns out that the damage to the injector was caused by the head of one of the valves breaking off. It seems like I have heard of this happening before on this forum.
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=75904&hilit=broken+valve&start=0

The cylinder head is junk now, some of the rocker arms busted, the piston is knackered and who knows if there is a bent rod.

Image Image


Last edited by 81Willis on Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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