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Timing belt faliure?
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=76156		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  rescue.tech [ Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Timing belt faliure?
Hello folks. My wife's Crd just quit while driving :dead: and I had it towed home. There was no signs or noises when it died. She wasn't going very fast in fact was just leaving a stop light and was slowing down again to get on the on ramp but didn't make to the ramp.

At first I assumed the fuel problems. So I started reading everything I could here. And I am thinking I am down to the TB. The biggest reason I figure is when I was checking the "flow control value" I sprayed some starting fluid in the intake and there was no signs of life. :grim: Before you scold me on the either, I waited long enough for the glow plugs to stop their cycle and then I wait long enough for them to cool down again.

So what I am asking is how can I physically look and see that the TB needs replace without tear into it. I looked into the Oil fill and look to see if I could/couldn't see anything turning or moving. I really didn't see anything but a really smooth surface that I could not tell if it was rotating or not.

She has just short of 150,000 on it and we bought it with 135,000 and we don't know if the TB was done but there seems to be a lot of good maintenance and what I call upgrades to the Liberty so I am assuming it was done. But now I have my doubts.

I found the parts I need from ID parts and two of the tools but I haven't found the alignment pins yet. Does anyone have a suggestion as to where to get them?

Thank you for you help.

CLint
Author:  Hexus [ Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing belt faliure?
http://compare.ebay.com/like/130901411864?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar

$90
Author:  papaindigo [ Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing belt faliure?
Sorry but I've said it before and will say it again to anyone purchasing a KJ CRD that's at or over 100k miles. Unless you have proof positive, as in signed paperwork or notarized assurance or some such, that the timing belt job has been done the only reasonable course of action is to assume it has not been done and do it or get it done. In fact I'd go so far as to say when negotiating a purchase price you should discount the asking price by $1,500 unless the seller can prove the TB job was done. End of rant.

Hexus' post is a good one or see http://www.beesvillebeefarm.com/jeep.html for how to make the pins. You can use a 6mm allen key (see the 05 FSM for how to on pg 9-243) to lock the flywheel. With those you can check the timing by pulling enough stuff off the front to get to the crankshaft nut so you can rotate the engine manually. No you don't have to pull the intercooler and such. In fact you might be able to get to that nut from underneath if you remove the front skid. If not you will need to pull the serp belt and fan/fan shroud to get down in that far. If the pins won't line up you have skipped time and will need to do a TB job and replace the crushed rockers. If the pins line up you have another problem and will still need to do the TB job.
Author:  painemann [ Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing belt faliure?
You can pull the all the top 8mm bolts from the timing belt cover and pull it back to have a peek in and see the belt itself. Good LUCK!
Author:  rescue.tech [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing belt faliure?
Well thank you folks for the direction. I was doing some more reading thru the FSM and I was wondering, can I pull the CMP sensor and see the rotation there? I think I might do that today and see what I can see.

Thanks for the link for the tools. That will help.

Thanks again

Clint
Author:  papaindigo [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing belt faliure?
You can see at least one of the cam pin holes coming around thru the oil filler hole but I will note that the 3 pins (2 cam and 1 flywheel) don't line up every time so to speak. If you can get the cam pins in but not the flywheel you need to do another full engine rotation to get all 3 in. There is a slight dimple on the crank next to the nut that needs to be at 3 o'clock when things line up but IIRC you cannot see it without taking the pulley off the crank although you can see if the 4 bolts are at the correct 12/3/6/9 o'clock positions.

Yes you can see a bit of the timing belt if you remove those cover bolts mentioned but that won't tell you much unless the belt has physically broken which is possible.
Author:  rescue.tech [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing belt faliure?
papaindigo, So what I am to understand is if I watch in the oil filler tube lone enough I should see the cam pin hole pass thru during its rotation. Is that correct? Will it be on the smooth machine surface or the rough casting part? If it is on the smooth machine part I am pretty sure it is not rotating. I saw nothing moving while looking down the tube.

Thanks again, I will take a look again and make sure I look long enough to remove any doubt.

Clint
Author:  papaindigo [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing belt faliure?
How are you rotating the engine? The cam pin hole, don't recall what the cam surface looks like where the hole is, goes past pretty quickly when rotating by hand using the crank nut so if you are using the starter it may go past too quickly to notice. If you are not sure things are rotating pop the previously mentioned cover nuts and crack the cover; if the TB is not broken you will easily see rotation there.

Never mind the ether have you actually bleed the fuel filter head; stupid question but are you sure the vehicle has fuel; what's the condition of the battery (low voltage=no run); I don't know but it may be possible for the cam or crank position sensors to fail and kill the engine. Just thoughts other than a TB.
Author:  MRausch82 [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing belt faliure?
Just pull the oil cap and have someone crank the engine. You should be able to see the cam moving, and it will be obvious. If you see no movement, you've got problems with the belt.
Author:  kjjet [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing belt faliure?
MRausch82 wrote:
Just pull the oil cap and have someone crank the engine. You should be able to see the cam moving, and it will be obvious. If you see no movement, you've got problems with the belt.



Yes.. Mike this will tell you if the belt is connected, but most jump time breaking the rockers and the cam will be still turning.
Author:  MRausch82 [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing belt faliure?
kjjet wrote:
MRausch82 wrote:
Just pull the oil cap and have someone crank the engine. You should be able to see the cam moving, and it will be obvious. If you see no movement, you've got problems with the belt.



Yes.. Mike this will tell you if the belt is connected, but most jump time breaking the rockers and the cam will be still turning.

True. I forgot about that. Good point!
Author:  rescue.tech [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing belt faliure?
OK Folks thanks for the replys. I did originally look in the oil fill and thought for sure nothing was moving. But later I was thinking maybe I was not seeing the machine surface move. So I got a really bright flash light this time. And yes nothing is moving. So I am off to do the TB.

Thanks for the help and I am sure I may have some other questions because this will be my first TB.

CLint
Author:  rescue.tech [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing belt faliure?
Does anyone have another Idea as to where to get the cam locking pins? I would like to get them a little sooner than have to wait for them to ship from overseas.

Thanks
Clint
Author:  MRausch82 [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing belt faliure?
rescue.tech wrote:
Does anyone have another Idea as to where to get the cam locking pins? I would like to get them a little sooner than have to wait for them to ship from overseas.

Thanks
Clint

PM me. I can get them from my supplier....
Author:  DOC4444 [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing belt faliure?
Sorry, but did you miss that you are going to also have to replace the rockers/lifters along with all the usual TB related parts?

Strongly suggest you be sure to replace the water pump.

Make sure you determine what happened, in what order.........

Good luck with the project!

DOC
Author:  rescue.tech [ Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing belt faliure?
Yes I will follow the suggested procedures for TB that are found on LOST. I am hoping the Rockers will be ok. She (the wife) was at idle coasting to a corner to make the approach to the on ramp to the highway.

Crossing my fingers here.

Thanks
Clint
Author:  kissfan79 [ Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing belt faliure?
If the timing belt snapped.....your rockers are broken as this is an interference engine. That sucks....I'm sorry to hear about it happening.

Jim
Author:  kjjet [ Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Timing belt faliure?
If the timing belt broke? Then you will have damage to the rockers for sure. The intake will need removed, rockers, lifters and cams inspected for damage.

Sorry for the bad news. Been there done that!

Advise if you need any procedures?

Good luck.

KJJET
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