Prefilling the oil filter

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:18 am

RFCRD wrote:

oldnavy wrote:

RFCRD wrote:

I imagine if the boots are short enough it shouldn't be an issue for most. The line that concerns me the most goes from the filter to the pump. That is relatively long on snakes around a bit. I could see this being an easy impolde if the filter starts to plug. It's also the one that implodes on a Detroit in buses. Starve that pump, it will get expensive. There aren't enough pages in this forum to go into the priming issues I've seen with systems of this type over the years. Just have to take them as they come.

Well the driver from the Jeep dealer is just arrived, got to go & get mine back.

Hey here is an idea see about getting a replacement line that would be better, you have the skill and/or contacts to get it done correct?

Should add that I have been looking at that whole filter plumbing arrangement since I test drove this beast. Don't like the way the lines are routed in front of the filter, blocking easy access. If you ever get in a pinch and have to drop this filter in the side of the road (trail for you real Jeepers), you will be SOL. Want to relocate the line to the pump (swing it around to the other side of the filter) the first time I change the filter. That way all you need to do is pull the wire connectors and you have clear access. The last thing you want to be doing on a diesel is disconnecting fuel hoses to change a filter, just asking for priming problems.

That's what we had to do on the VW's, but clamping off the hoses and then using a mighty vac made things pretty easy.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:57 pm

oldnavy wrote:

RFCRD wrote:

oldnavy wrote:

RFCRD wrote:

I imagine if the boots are short enough it shouldn't be an issue for most. The line that concerns me the most goes from the filter to the pump. That is relatively long on snakes around a bit. I could see this being an easy impolde if the filter starts to plug. It's also the one that implodes on a Detroit in buses. Starve that pump, it will get expensive. There aren't enough pages in this forum to go into the priming issues I've seen with systems of this type over the years. Just have to take them as they come.

Well the driver from the Jeep dealer is just arrived, got to go & get mine back.

Hey here is an idea see about getting a replacement line that would be better, you have the skill and/or contacts to get it done correct?

Should add that I have been looking at that whole filter plumbing arrangement since I test drove this beast. Don't like the way the lines are routed in front of the filter, blocking easy access. If you ever get in a pinch and have to drop this filter in the side of the road (trail for you real Jeepers), you will be SOL. Want to relocate the line to the pump (swing it around to the other side of the filter) the first time I change the filter. That way all you need to do is pull the wire connectors and you have clear access. The last thing you want to be doing on a diesel is disconnecting fuel hoses to change a filter, just asking for priming problems.

That's what we had to do on the VW's, but clamping off the hoses and then using a mighty vac made things pretty easy.

Was thinking visegrips to pinch both lines but that is hard on the lines and will lead to an implosion point. Have a feeling there is a built in check valve in the filter head with the hand pump mechanism.

For priming the big stuff, used an old style R12 freon valve installed the filter head. Had an empty 30 lb. R12 keg, vac it down, suck it @ 1/2 full of fuel, pressurize with shop air. Hook it up with to the R12 valve, turn the keg upside down and give it a blast. Also used a simple hand pump garden sprayer hooked up the same way. Works like a charm.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:18 pm

RFCRD wrote:

oldnavy wrote:

RFCRD wrote:

oldnavy wrote:

RFCRD wrote:

I imagine if the boots are short enough it shouldn't be an issue for most. The line that concerns me the most goes from the filter to the pump. That is relatively long on snakes around a bit. I could see this being an easy impolde if the filter starts to plug. It's also the one that implodes on a Detroit in buses. Starve that pump, it will get expensive. There aren't enough pages in this forum to go into the priming issues I've seen with systems of this type over the years. Just have to take them as they come.

Well the driver from the Jeep dealer is just arrived, got to go & get mine back.

Hey here is an idea see about getting a replacement line that would be better, you have the skill and/or contacts to get it done correct?

Should add that I have been looking at that whole filter plumbing arrangement since I test drove this beast. Don't like the way the lines are routed in front of the filter, blocking easy access. If you ever get in a pinch and have to drop this filter in the side of the road (trail for you real Jeepers), you will be SOL. Want to relocate the line to the pump (swing it around to the other side of the filter) the first time I change the filter. That way all you need to do is pull the wire connectors and you have clear access. The last thing you want to be doing on a diesel is disconnecting fuel hoses to change a filter, just asking for priming problems.

That's what we had to do on the VW's, but clamping off the hoses and then using a mighty vac made things pretty easy.

Was thinking visegrips to pinch both lines but that is hard on the lines and will lead to an implosion point. Have a feeling there is a built in check valve in the filter head with the hand pump mechanism.

For priming the big stuff, used an old style R12 freon valve installed the filter head. Had an empty 30 lb. R12 keg, vac it down, suck it @ 1/2 full of fuel, pressurize with shop air. Hook it up with to the R12 valve, turn the keg upside down and give it a blast. Also used a simple hand pump garden sprayer hooked up the same way. Works like a charm.

Hey haven't you seen the new hose clamp tools? Even Autozone have them, no sharp edges.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:41 pm

Will have to check out those clamps. Was looking at the CRD fuel filter being mounted higher than the motor and pump, might not need to clamp it at all. With the exception of my Olds 5.7, every other diesel had the filters lower than the motor. Drop those filters and expect a bath along with a priming ordeal. Went as far as installing a ball valve on some of the Detroits to keep the fuel up in the motor (and out of my armpitt) when changing filters.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:27 am

RFCRD wrote:

Should add that I have been looking at that whole filter plumbing arrangement since I test drove this beast. Don't like the way the lines are routed in front of the filter, blocking easy access. If you ever get in a pinch and have to drop this filter in the side of the road (trail for you real Jeepers), you will be SOL. Want to relocate the line to the pump (swing it around to the other side of the filter) the first time I change the filter. That way all you need to do is pull the wire connectors and you have clear access. The last thing you want to be doing on a diesel is disconnecting fuel hoses to change a filter, just asking for priming problems.

Amen to that! I've changed it out myself once, and expended half a year's worth of profanity doing it. Found out the easiest way is to disconnect both fuel lines AND both electrical harnesses from the filter head to get them out of the way. Otherwise good luck getting even a strap wrench in there to get the bloody thing loose, much less tightening up the new one. And watch out for the center gasket on the filter, it's just press fit down inside a land, hit it up against anything and it falls off. That's another reason I added the Permacool filter, I DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH CHANGING OUT THAT POS AGAIN!!! :shock:

One other item of note, while we're on the subject. With the stock filter, I never got any water out of the beast when I checked it, even after the 3000 mile round trip to TX with questionable fuel. With the Permacool filter, checking it every second tank of fuel at minimum, I've always gotten water out of it, as much as a half ounce or better after at least two tanks of fuel! WTF? :shock:

I've also noticed since installing the Permacool filter that I no longer get condensation in the clear outlet hose of the Provent, and there's no longer any water in the Provent drain tube the last three times I've checked it, only oil! Also, the nasty gray sludge that used to form inside the Provent housing and filter element has gone away. I pulled the top off the filter to check it on Sunday, first time in at least a month, and was literally slackjawed to find nothing inside but an oil film. Even the sludge that was down inside the filter element and was too much of a PITA to clean out had dissolved and went away.

Admittedly, I've also been overdosing on biocide. A full ounce in the tank and a half ounce in each 5 gallon jug when i do my monthly fillup, and then another full ounce in the tank before I dump in the jugs at the two week point. Same with PS White, 8 oz in the tank and a couple in each jug, then another 8 oz in the tank when pouring in the jugs. That might explain the disappearance of the gray sludge and condensation, and why the Permacool is trapping so much water.

The other alternative is a can of worms, that I don't know if I even want to mention for fear of starting a firestorm and giving some of the idiots on other forums another half-a## reason to bad mouth this vehicle - that perhaps the factory fuel filter is about as effective at stopping water as the factory CCV vent is at stopping oil? :shock:

RFCRD · **Posted:** Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:31 am

retmil46 wrote:

RFCRD wrote:

Should add that I have been looking at that whole filter plumbing arrangement since I test drove this beast. Don't like the way the lines are routed in front of the filter, blocking easy access. If you ever get in a pinch and have to drop this filter in the side of the road (trail for you real Jeepers), you will be SOL. Want to relocate the line to the pump (swing it around to the other side of the filter) the first time I change the filter. That way all you need to do is pull the wire connectors and you have clear access. The last thing you want to be doing on a diesel is disconnecting fuel hoses to change a filter, just asking for priming problems.

Amen to that! I've changed it out myself once, and expended half a year's worth of profanity doing it. Found out the easiest way is to disconnect both fuel lines AND both electrical harnesses from the filter head to get them out of the way. Otherwise good luck getting even a strap wrench in there to get the bloody thing loose, much less tightening up the new one. And watch out for the center gasket on the filter, it's just press fit down inside a land, hit it up against anything and it falls off. That's another reason I added the Permacool filter, I DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH CHANGING OUT THAT POS AGAIN!!! :shock:

One other item of note, while we're on the subject. With the stock filter, I never got any water out of the beast when I checked it, even after the 3000 mile round trip to TX with questionable fuel. With the Permacool filter, checking it every second tank of fuel at minimum, I've always gotten water out of it, as much as a half ounce or better after at least two tanks of fuel! WTF? :shock:

I've also noticed since installing the Permacool filter that I no longer get condensation in the clear outlet hose of the Provent, and there's no longer any water in the Provent drain tube the last three times I've checked it, only oil! Also, the nasty gray sludge that used to form inside the Provent housing and filter element has gone away. I pulled the top off the filter to check it on Sunday, first time in at least a month, and was literally slackjawed to find nothing inside but an oil film. Even the sludge that was down inside the filter element and was too much of a PITA to clean out had dissolved and went away.

Admittedly, I've also been overdosing on biocide. A full ounce in the tank and a half ounce in each 5 gallon jug when i do my monthly fillup, and then another full ounce in the tank before I dump in the jugs at the two week point. Same with PS White, 8 oz in the tank and a couple in each jug, then another 8 oz in the tank when pouring in the jugs. That might explain the disappearance of the gray sludge and condensation, and why the Permacool is trapping so much water.

The other alternative is a can of worms, that I don't know if I even want to mention for fear of starting a firestorm and giving some of the idiots on other forums another half-a## reason to bad mouth this vehicle - that perhaps the factory fuel filter is about as effective at stopping water as the factory CCV vent is at stopping oil? :shock:

When I had the Olds 5.7, I added a prefilter. Used the "primary" filter from a Detroit Diesel 2 filter system which was a logical chioce because at the time I had a back room stocked with the parts. It was a cheap & dirty fix but never again changed the POS factory box filter or had the classic pump problems others had with that motor. Thinking about a prefilter/water trap on this one but want something mounted low and closer to the tank, maybe undernieth on the frame rail.

One hint on the potential life expectancy of the CRD factory filter. I changed fuel filters on the coaches usually twice/yr. which had 2 filters only slightly larger than this filter. 6 months use was roughly 35,000 miles or @ 5,000 gal of fuel and rarely saw any water and never had a plug-up. You do the math. Living in a colder climate I plan to change it in the Fall and forget about it.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:37 am

Hey Mitch why don't you post a picture or send it to me and I can host it, that way you can post it or I can post it for you. I still have your CCv pictures up here at Jeep Stuff

retmil46 · **Posted:** Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:04 pm

oldnavy wrote:

Hey Mitch why don't you post a picture or send it to me and I can host it, that way you can post it or I can post it for you. I still have your CCv pictures up here at Jeep Stuff

Might be this weekend before I get the chance to do that. Mine's a quick and dirty fix as well, got it tystrapped sideways to the back of the battery. Only way I could figure on short notice to mount it in a convenient location. I added enough hose so i could slide it out of the tystraps and hold it vertical, with a bowl underneath, for draining, and keep it vertical while I reprimed the system. It's an oil filter type affair that screws onto the mounting head, just open up the petcock on bottom and twist it loose from the head for draining. Haven't had any problems repriming the system, other than it takes several tries to get all the air out if I really drain down the filter. I may just start pulling it off completely and filling it up with PS to cut down on the amount of air. Occurred to me the other day we don't really know how often and for how long that factory priming pump is rated for, that it might be a good idea to try and minimize it's use as much as possible.

Any thoughts on the water/sludge/condensation I mentioned? I'm wondering if it's having an honest-to-god filter on it now, or the biocide and PS, or both.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:41 pm

As far as water vapor in Provent having stopped after adding the second fuel filter and the amount you have collecting in the new fuel filter, that can only mean one thing. Your are getting a lot of water in your fuel system somewhere, either already in the fuel or maybe collecting it by condensation. Heck maybe you fuel cap has not been on tight and you have gotten water in that way. It is amazing how much water a engine can injest and still run, and run smoothly until it eats a fuel pump up. The reason the water vapor in the CCV is from normal diesel blow-by on the rings. The worry is not so much the engine but the fuel pump and injectors, my guess is your fuel supply is the source of the water. In all my years of owning diesels I only saw water in any dangerous amounts (any globiuals larger then BB) once and that was with a guy running home brew bio-D, I have never seen any water in any of my MB or VW cars. I have lots of farm fill trucks at the dealship, farmers are bad about letting condensation build in their tanks here in our humid wet climate. Remember water is a real problem in biodiesel and if you are using a B20 mix you need to watch and use a water seperator with visual check glass. That is what I am getting ready to do on the wife's CRD, I had planned on just a 10 micron filter with water seperater section, but may go to 2 to 5 micron now.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:32 am

That's the deuce of it. Using the same stations as I did prior to adding the Permacool, never saw any water out of the factory filter. Now I'm getting about a 1/2 ounce max, usually less, after two full tanks.

Don't think it's a loose fuel cap, I'm pretty anal about that, always make sure I get the 3 clicks out of it. Could be condensation inside the tank with changing weather. Saw that on the '04 Dakota I had, these bloody totally sealed fuel systems, once you suck humid air inside the tank there's no place for the moisture to go.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:35 am

oldnavy wrote:

As far as water vapor in Provent having stopped after adding the second fuel filter and the amount you have collecting in the new fuel filter, that can only mean one thing. Your are getting a lot of water in your fuel system somewhere, either already in the fuel or maybe collecting it by condensation. Heck maybe you fuel cap has not been on tight and you have gotten water in that way. It is amazing how much water a engine can injest and still run, and run smoothly until it eats a fuel pump up. The reason the water vapor in the CCV is from normal diesel blow-by on the rings. The worry is not so much the engine but the fuel pump and injectors, my guess is your fuel supply is the source of the water. In all my years of owning diesels I only saw water in any dangerous amounts (any globiuals larger then BB) once and that was with a guy running home brew bio-D, I have never seen any water in any of my MB or VW cars. I have lots of farm fill trucks at the dealship, farmers are bad about letting condensation build in their tanks here in our humid wet climate. Remember water is a real problem in biodiesel and if you are using a B20 mix you need to watch and use a water seperator with visual check glass. That is what I am getting ready to do on the wife's CRD, I had planned on just a 10 micron filter with water seperater section, but may go to 2 to 5 micron now.

I don't know about the micron rating, but I'd say that the water separator part is a definite must.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:47 am

retmil46 wrote:

That's the deuce of it. Using the same stations as I did prior to adding the Permacool, never saw any water out of the factory filter. Now I'm getting about a 1/2 ounce max, usually less, after two full tanks.

Don't think it's a loose fuel cap, I'm pretty anal about that, always make sure I get the 3 clicks out of it. Could be condensation inside the tank with changing weather. Saw that on the '04 Dakota I had, these bloody totally sealed fuel systems, once you suck humid air inside the tank there's no place for the moisture to go.

One of the reasons you usually won't see water coming out of the spin-on factory filter is that it will wick into the paper element. Many diesel owners in colder climates think they have "gelled" fuel when in fact they have water wicked into the filter element then frozen when parked in the cold. That's why I would insist on a fresh filter in the Fall. It's a joke to "drain" this type of filter. If there is enough water to trip the sensor, or worse be drained off the bottom it's already too late to salvage the filter. Time to throw it away and start over.

Another trick I use is to not leave a diesel parked with an empty tank. As the fuel cools, it contracts and draws in humid air which condenses. I always topped them off immediately after every run to minimize the air space in the tank. All those leftover CRD's sitting on dealer lots for months on end with empty tanks are inviting trouble.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:20 am

retmil46 wrote:

That's the deuce of it. Using the same stations as I did prior to adding the Permacool, never saw any water out of the factory filter. Now I'm getting about a 1/2 ounce max, usually less, after two full tanks.

Don't think it's a loose fuel cap, I'm pretty anal about that, always make sure I get the 3 clicks out of it. Could be condensation inside the tank with changing weather. Saw that on the '04 Dakota I had, these bloody totally sealed fuel systems, once you suck humid air inside the tank there's no place for the moisture to go.

I'm not sure, but that may fall within allowable linits. Been too long since I was at the Bosch website and looked at there spec's for IP's as to fuel quality. About 2 or 3 years ago they basically stated no US fuel was within their standards for cleaness without major filtering by the auto/truck mfg's onboard filter(s).

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:43 am

Is anybody planning to add an electric fuel pump with their added filtration? There has to be a limit to the number of filters the integral lift pump can pull through. I wonder what the specs are on pressure and flow to the integral lift pump?

RFCRD · **Posted:** Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:21 am

oldnavy wrote:

retmil46 wrote:

That's the deuce of it. Using the same stations as I did prior to adding the Permacool, never saw any water out of the factory filter. Now I'm getting about a 1/2 ounce max, usually less, after two full tanks.

Don't think it's a loose fuel cap, I'm pretty anal about that, always make sure I get the 3 clicks out of it. Could be condensation inside the tank with changing weather. Saw that on the '04 Dakota I had, these bloody totally sealed fuel systems, once you suck humid air inside the tank there's no place for the moisture to go.

I'm not sure, but that may fall within allowable linits. Been too long since I was at the Bosch website and looked at there spec's for IP's as to fuel quality. About 2 or 3 years ago they basically stated no US fuel was within their standards for cleaness without major filtering by the auto/truck mfg's onboard filter(s).

Not sure if it was just a coincident but every time I had a fuel problem it was purchased somewhere in the South. The classic was on a coach I sold. Within 2 weeks the new owner filled at a corner gas station in the middle of nowhere in Alabama. The water contamination was so bad that it blew the tips off the injectors and completely filled motor with diesel fuel (it was done, a $12K mistake). That same set of DDEC injectors had over 700,000 trouble free miles and been through 3 engine rebuilds before this situation.

FYI: Had this been a warrantied motor, Detroit Diesel would not have covered it. DDA will not warranty their fuel injectors or any damage caused by injector failure. The moral of the story is watch what you feed your CRD!

oldnavy · **Posted:** Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:44 am

High humidity year around and so many underground tanks that often leaked for years use to be the main problem. The humidity is still a problem for modern gas & diesel engines, it has really started showing up over the last few years with increase of diesel PU trucks on the farm and their running fuel from their farm bulk tank.

Ripster · **Posted:** Mon May 01, 2006 10:10 pm

Moved to proper thread, sorry.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Mon May 01, 2006 10:16 pm

Seems you have got the cover early and already started work. Let me know about how it fits. Hey did it come with allen head bolts?

Ripster · **Posted:** Mon May 01, 2006 10:21 pm

Old Navy you caught me in the middle of that post, I was trying to get the links to work.
Yes replacement bolts with allen head fittings, all american made it appears.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Mon May 01, 2006 10:25 pm

One question, do you have the OEM fuel skid? If not then I would be out o luck.

Prefilling the oil filter

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