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GLOW PLUG FRAGMENTS DROPPED INSIDE MOTOR
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Author:  bsager [ Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  GLOW PLUG FRAGMENTS DROPPED INSIDE MOTOR
wifes 2005 crd taken in for new glow plugs at dealership tech dropped ceremic fragments into head. dealship says we need to pay for head removal to retrive fragments at a cost of 2000.00 dollor up and above the 800.00 to 1000.00 cost to change out the old glow plugs for new ones . what the xxx is going on.... should i /we pay!!! is this not the techs mistake?
Author:  papaindigo [ Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GLOW PLUG FRAGMENTS DROPPED INSIDE MOTOR
If the tech broke the tip of a glow plug(s) during removal I'd say it's their problem. However, if upon removal there was a piece(s) of glow plug tip missing then the question becomes was it broken during removal or sometime prior to removal. A recently broken tip has a somewhat shiny break as opposed to a dirty (combustion) break; the difference is easy to see if you deliberately snap the tip off an unbroken ceramic glow plug. If its an old break and you are still running then it's likely the piece(s) passed thru the engine exhaust without causing damage. If it's a new break then I'd say it's their problem.

FYI it takes rather a bit more than a light "tap" to break the tip off one of the ceramic plugs so one would have to be pretty ham fisted to do it during removal assuming the plug wasn't cracked but not broken prior to removal.

If there are bits in there I don't know if they can be removed without pulling the head.

No comment on that dealer pricing :banghead:
Author:  TJ2 [ Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GLOW PLUG FRAGMENTS DROPPED INSIDE MOTOR
Welcome to the board Sager. Wish you could have gotten here sooner.
Question: Are dealer either liars or thieves? Correct answer is BOTH.

1. I would ask to see the broken gp or gp's. As Papa said, you can eyeball a broken plug to see if the break is fresh or not.
2. The prices are absurd. You could have done the job yourself with drop-in Etecno plugs (Squeeto has an excellent how-to.)
3. Does Chrysler still have an "I'm being screwed corporate help line." At one time an arbitrator was available to unscramble messes like your.

The assembly line approach to auto repair does result in idiocracy. My plugs came out easily from a warm engine and some 'freeze' type liquid wrench. I used Squeeto's gas line extractor method so there was no possibility of dropping anything into the cylinder.

Good luck

PS I still have the ceramics I removed. Think I'll try some destructive testing to get an idea of just how fragile they are.
Author:  ChooChooman74 [ Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GLOW PLUG FRAGMENTS DROPPED INSIDE MOTOR
Welcome to the Forum.

800 to 1000 for glow plug change. OUCH! $100 in parts!!

As for them breaking, was it the dealers fault? On on 05, IMHO the plugs are way over the time they should have been changed. I personally am doing mine every 2 years as long as this winter (my 2nd), the engine still starts fine.

Too bad you couldn't have gotten here sooner. We may have been able to point you to a mechanic other than the stealership.
Author:  EAB [ Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GLOW PLUG FRAGMENTS DROPPED INSIDE MOTOR
To get pieces into the cylinder, the GP had to brake as it was being loosened. That means whichever poor soul touched it next would be the bad guy.
Author:  DOC4444 [ Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GLOW PLUG FRAGMENTS DROPPED INSIDE MOTOR
Was the CEL on when you brought it in? Did they start it after breaking the glow plug?

DOC
Author:  bsager [ Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GLOW PLUG FRAGMENTS DROPPED INSIDE MOTOR
Yes the cel was on. The vehicle was taken into the dealership for service( oil change and lube) and for daig of the cel and intermitant limp mode when cold outside and when turning corners plus a wiper trouble .Payed 140.00 for oil and lube, 30.00 for a peace of mind insection, Wiper trouble diag recommend wiper assembly 75.00. Limp mode and cel trouble daiged cause glow plugs module and boost pressure sensor cost for diag 236.00 (service advisor had called and asked that tech reqested extra time to do daigs and tests) We agreeed to extra time as we wanted it daiaged correctly . wash and vac free. Shop supplies 35.00 total 580.00 with taxes Vehicle driven in to dealership for service of limp mode/ cel lite when parts came in .
Vehicle nows sits outside shop in a no run notstarted state , until we agree to pay to have head remove to remove fragments of GP that broke when being changed
Author:  geordi [ Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GLOW PLUG FRAGMENTS DROPPED INSIDE MOTOR
The phone line will just get you an angry woman that will tell you "tough luck, piss off" which is Chrysler's official corporate policy line.

As for the dealer pricing... They caused this mess, THEY get to pay for it. I second or third the idea of YOU physically inspecting the broken glow plug remnants. If the ceramic ends are dull or dusty looking all over - That is an OLD failure then, put the new plugs in and drive on. If the ceramic is dark and shiny looking... That is THEIR FAULT then. You certainly would need to be quite a gorilla to break the plugs while changing them.

As for the pricing... Obviously I'm not asking anywhere NEAR enough for that job! That is robbery for both the plugs, AND the cost to pull the head to fix THEIR screwup.
Author:  JeepCoMj [ Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GLOW PLUG FRAGMENTS DROPPED INSIDE MOTOR
It doesn't matter if they were going to crack "on the next poor soul".

The dealership should have known going in that it was a possibility. They took that risk upon themselves. This is their problem.


Pay a lawyer to issue a letter of intent to sue and they will change their tune. You may still have to pay something, but it will likely result in them drastically reducing the cost.
Author:  pwrwagn [ Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GLOW PLUG FRAGMENTS DROPPED INSIDE MOTOR
I used to work in a shop that did glow plug changes all the time, and breaking off wasn't highly unusual.

Fortunately, it was sometimes possible to pull the intake or exhaust, and fish the broken off part out without tearing the engine down. These don't have that luxury.

However, we did not eat the time required to fix it. The broken GP was a failure outside of our control. We got real skilled at NOT breaking them, by patient removal techniques. I hate to say it, but it's not their liability. Just as bolts breaking instead of loosening is NOT their liability, if it happens.

However, that being said, I would NOT let the dealer do it. I'd find someone with a lot lower labor rate, who won't charge you dealer prices for the head gasket / bolts / misc parts.
Author:  racertracer [ Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GLOW PLUG FRAGMENTS DROPPED INSIDE MOTOR
Go to Chrysler customer care.

I was very surprised at how well I was treated and how well my problem was resolved
Author:  jlgail4309 [ Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GLOW PLUG FRAGMENTS DROPPED INSIDE MOTOR
I wonder if you could blow it out or vac it out like though a small tube. Then turn the motor over by hand and make sure u got out.
Author:  kjjet [ Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GLOW PLUG FRAGMENTS DROPPED INSIDE MOTOR
I've had these type of problems. Pull the injector and the glow plug in the effected cylinder. Rotate the engine by hand, so the effected cylinder is near top. Blow compressed air into the glow plug hole while inserting a thin magnet in the injector hole to retrieve any metal. "Use a small telescoping type magnet"

Good luck
KJJET
Author:  racertracer [ Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GLOW PLUG FRAGMENTS DROPPED INSIDE MOTOR
kjjet wrote:
I've had these type of problems. Pull the injector and the glow plug in the effected cylinder. Rotate the engine by hand, so the effected cylinder is near top. Blow compressed air into the glow plug hole while inserting a thin magnet in the injector hole to retrieve any metal. "Use a small telescoping type magnet"

Good luck
KJJET


Sounds like it may work but the original glow plugs are made of ceramic and not metal.
Author:  jlgail4309 [ Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GLOW PLUG FRAGMENTS DROPPED INSIDE MOTOR
It would be worth a try to blow it out. Some pass though with no problem. Then turn over by hand to make sure.
Author:  kjjet [ Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GLOW PLUG FRAGMENTS DROPPED INSIDE MOTOR
racertracer wrote:
kjjet wrote:
I've had these type of problems. Pull the injector and the glow plug in the effected cylinder. Rotate the engine by hand, so the effected cylinder is near top. Blow compressed air into the glow plug hole while inserting a thin magnet in the injector hole to retrieve any metal. "Use a small telescoping type magnet"

Good luck
KJJET


Sounds like it may work but the original glow plugs are made of ceramic and not metal.


Tell me if i'm wrong but the Ceramic is on the outside with steel in the middle? If they break there is still some steel a magnet will pick-up?? I have a few old ones i could cut open??
Author:  geordi [ Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GLOW PLUG FRAGMENTS DROPPED INSIDE MOTOR
kjjet wrote:
racertracer wrote:
kjjet wrote:
I've had these type of problems. Pull the injector and the glow plug in the effected cylinder. Rotate the engine by hand, so the effected cylinder is near top. Blow compressed air into the glow plug hole while inserting a thin magnet in the injector hole to retrieve any metal. "Use a small telescoping type magnet"

Good luck
KJJET


Sounds like it may work but the original glow plugs are made of ceramic and not metal.


Tell me if i'm wrong but the Ceramic is on the outside with steel in the middle? If they break there is still some steel a magnet will pick-up?? I have a few old ones i could cut open??


Unfortunately, that is not how they are built. The ceramic tip is all by itself out there - there is no steel center. The tip can be cut or snapped off with just a set of wire cutters, if you want to see what freshly-cut ceramic looks like. I don't know if the ceramic has steel blended in during manufacture or how it actually generates the heat - that part is currently beyond my knowledge... But I have seen broken plugs and there isn't a dual layer.
Author:  TJ2 [ Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GLOW PLUG FRAGMENTS DROPPED INSIDE MOTOR
geordi wrote:
The phone line will just get you an angry woman that will tell you "tough luck, piss off" which is Chrysler's official corporate policy line.


The times they are a changin. Such was not always the case.
Author:  Squeeto [ Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GLOW PLUG FRAGMENTS DROPPED INSIDE MOTOR
I believe that that ceramic tip encases an element coil. The new metal ones just put a steel case over this.
Author:  geordi [ Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GLOW PLUG FRAGMENTS DROPPED INSIDE MOTOR
I had a broken one (it broke in my box of shrapnel from engine #1) and the 1/4" or so of ceramic that was left coming out of the metal shaft didn't show any evidence of a coil.

One thing I did think about this recently - maybe the ceramic has graphite baked into it? Graphite conducts electricity quite well, and could be a very easy way to make the dead short if the power wire tracks to the center of the ceramic and the ceramic-graphite makes the connection to the steel shaft and ground.

The broken off tip also didn't have any different layers or rings or anything else that would suggest that the power connects anywhere other than right at the end of the metal shaft.
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