1st fill on Biodiesel

bhysjulien · **Posted:** Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:25 pm

Topped off my tank with 8 gallons of biodiesel today. This is the first time I've actually felt good about putting fuel in any vehicle. Knowing that my money will eventually get back to an American farmer instead of OPEC is a priceless feeling. As soon as I'm able I'm going to keep a 50 gallon drum in the garage.

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:54 pm

I heartily agree with your sentiments, but I wonder what percentage of Bio does DC think is acceptable? I'd hate to void warranties. I thought I had read that 20% was max as far as DC is concerned. Anybody know for sure? I am running B20 and think it is running better and cleaner.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:53 pm

Actually 5% is max according to DC which is the straight company line from the diesel FI equipment manufacturers. You will find DC stating 20% is OK for the new Cummins powered Ram trucks. This likely to chase the bids of government agencies that are starting to run B20 (or are required by state or local laws to run biofuels).

And yes, it is running cleaner. It's not your imagination, even B10 makes a world of difference in the CRD.

Xgecko · **Posted:** Sat Apr 15, 2006 8:24 am

from what I understand and have read (both here and elsewhere) the only reason that DC only endorses B5 is that at the time of release in 2005ish B5 was the only BIO that was certified...that has probably changed in the last 16-18 months since they originally made their recommendations

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:59 am

What I read was written 6/04 and is not specific to Jeep or any other car brand. Came from Bosch (and the other FI manufacturers) and it does have to do with biodiesel consistancy and quality. Also, I would not be suprised to find that this motor can't meet NOx emission standards burning higher concentrations. This would limit DC's ability to raise the acceptable concentration levels, even if they wanted to.

I don't loose sleep over running higher concentrations as long as I get clean fuel from a reliable source (same goes for the dino diesel). When it goes for service it is running on B5.

dgeist · **Posted:** Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:20 pm

I've started using B100 from a local oil company and I love it. That's all they offer from a pump. Any other mix and I'd have to do the ratios myself. Anyway, it's about 30 cents cheaper than the average #2 diesel in the area, so I have little motivation to go back. The absolute only problem I've had is a little hesitation on colder mornings right after start-up. Granted, I'm in Atlanta, so that won't happen often.

Has anyone actually had anything bad happen (or would you expect to) with B100?

Dan

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:25 pm

I would keep an eye on any rubber hoses which are exposed to the fuel. I don't know of any issues specific to the CRD in the Libby, but hoses sweating and softening from exposure to B100 are the things you hear about. This is more of an issue on older diesels, but I wouldn't bet the farm that the Liberty is immune.

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:26 pm

I asked my dealer service manager if I was restricted to B5, we only have B20 available locally. The response was that he would never test my fuel unless there were french fries floating in it. :roll:

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:34 pm

Goglio704 wrote:

I would keep an eye on any rubber hoses which are exposed to the fuel. I don't know of any issues specific to the CRD in the Libby, but hoses sweating and softening from exposure to B100 are the things you hear about. This is more of an issue on older diesels, but I wouldn't bet the farm that the Liberty is immune.

That would only be on older cars & trucks, our CRD would not be effected by B100. I ran my '00 NB on B100 for almost a year with no problems, and currently running B10 only because no B20 or B100 available in this area. Down with OPEC, up with US farmers.

Goglio704 · **Posted:** Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:31 am

Biodiesel is one of the main reasons I've gone back to my roots and actively tried to get diesel transportation. If I sold by old white Chevy pickup, I would have no need for gasoline - except to mow the grass. Push comes to shove and I can fix that too, but a diesel weedeater might be kind of extreme - or would it...

Vox Fatalis · **Posted:** Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:19 am

My wife and I actually bought our CRD for the same reason, to support biodiesel. Less usage of fossil fuels, and supporting the farmers here instead of oil companies.

Anybody see improved mileage on bio-diesel? I'm looking to start filling up at least 50% of the time with biodiesel. Rates in the Seattle area for biodiesel are pretty high tho. Higher than standard diesel.

byhsjulien wrote:

Knowing that my money will eventually get back to an American farmer instead of OPEC is a priceless feeling.

While I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment, it's slightly off. We get more fuel from non-OPEC sources than OPEC sources. I didn't realize this until someone pointed out a lot of our fuel in the PacNW comes from Alberta, Canada. Looking around, I found a report from the Energy Info Administration detailing where we import our fossil fuels from. Roughly 31% from OPEC, 69% non-OPEC. Here's another article as well.

But still, I'd rather find ways not to be dependent on oil companies. Their price gouging is simply ridiculous, esp when you top it off with gas taxes...

Reggie · **Posted:** Sun Apr 16, 2006 10:37 am

Vox Fatalis wrote:

My wife and I actually bought our CRD for the same reason, to support biodiesel. Less usage of fossil fuels, and supporting the farmers here instead of oil companies.

Anybody see improved mileage on bio-diesel? I'm looking to start filling up at least 50% of the time with biodiesel. Rates in the Seattle area for biodiesel are pretty high tho. Higher than standard diesel.

byhsjulien wrote:

Knowing that my money will eventually get back to an American farmer instead of OPEC is a priceless feeling.

While I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment, it's slightly off. We get more fuel from non-OPEC sources than OPEC sources. I didn't realize this until someone pointed out a lot of our fuel in the PacNW comes from Alberta, Canada. Looking around, I found a report from the Energy Info Administration detailing where we import our fossil fuels from. Roughly 31% from OPEC, 69% non-OPEC. Here's another article as well.

But still, I'd rather find ways not to be dependent on oil companies. Their price gouging is simply ridiculous, esp when you top it off with gas taxes...

I also like to use biodiesel even though I am concerned about the issues that it may cause that will not be covered under warranty. One of the main reasons I like to use biodiesel is that my dollars will stay here in the US - or so I thought. The last batch that I bought on Friday is from palm oil which comes from Central America. I would prefer to support my fellow American farmer by buying biodiesel but that no longer seems to be an option. Now I have a choice between to evils.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:18 am

I buy from MFA Oil Company which has it own refinery's for biodiesel (50 cetane B10 is what I use) and has just signed contracts with MO farmers for their soy oil and have went into pratnership with them to build more plants to mfg biodiesel and related products.

oz_crd · **Posted:** Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:58 pm

We also liked the idea of using biodiesel in our CRD, but no local stations carried it. But i saw an article in the Kansas City Star this past Thursday saying a Valero station in downtown KC would be the first to sell biodiesel starting Friday morning. i guess they even knocked $0.25/gallon off the price for Friday and Saturday. Just my luck that our CRD has been in the shop since Wednesday with a transmission problem, and we missed out on the cheap biodiesel.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:58 pm

A good place to start looking for biodiesel is www.biodiesel.org. They have lists of retail locations. One thing to consider, the place where I buy it doesn't look like a retail gas station. It's an fuel oil supplier, yard looks like a small tank farm and the biodiesel tank is inside a heated pole barn. You would never know they sold the stuff by the outside apperance. I looked them up from the biodiesel website.

Taz · **Posted:** Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:10 am

Before we bought the CRD I decided that I would only buy a vehicle that was alternative fuel capable, BioDiesel or E85. The Biodiesel works out to be more economical, most of the time, E85 prices fluctuate a lot in MN. E85 is more available at local stations and a majority of the nations production is in MN. But BioDiesel was on the rise and soon MN will have 25% of the nations production of BioDiesel. So the CRD KJ was the natural choice, a Jeep with a CRD what could be better. MN is close to being all B2, however there are very few places to get B20 or B100, and I have not found an actual filing staton yet with B20 or B100. I can order 55 gal drums. Is anyone in MN running B20 or higher, and if so where are you getting it?

naturist · **Posted:** Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:53 am

The dealer that was working on my 2005 CRD until about 3 weeks ago had extensive discussions with DC regarding my use of biodiesel, and the Word From God is that 5% remains the maximum approved. Admit to use of more as I did, and DC puts your engine on a watch list: ie, they didn't void my warranty, but they are deeply concerned and have their finger on the trigger.

And Reggie, DON'T BUY BIODIESEL FROM PALM OIL! While it is true that oil palms are among the most efficient species one might grow for oil production, vast tracts of the rainforests of central and south america as well as Indonesia are being burned off to plant oil palms, transforming that aspect of the biofuels program from an environmental plus to a big minus. Into the bargain, the cloud point of palm oil biodiesel is close to 60 degrees F, making it marginally useful north of Atlanta for most of the year.

Throw in the fact that it does nothing to promote the financial health of anybody in the US, as we can't grow oil palms here, and there is no earthly reason to import it, save perhaps the capacity of a handful of folks to make money selling it. Let 'em know you aren't interested in merely lining their pockets instead of the arabs. DECLINE THE PURCHASE OF PALM OIL BIODIESEL!

Tell 'em you only want biodiesel from US crops, and drive away from the pump. It's the only way we can stop this bit of sillyness.

dgeist · **Posted:** Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:29 am

I have another reason to support alternative fuels. I'm in Atlanta, and the only major refiners (2 of them) in GA are in Rome area (extreme NW of the state). They don't use soybeans or anything else vegatable-based, but rather good old-fasioned chickens.

You see, the chicken farming industry is huge in North Georgia. Anyone who's taken a recreational ride through the mountains or made a visit in the area knows what I'm talking about. They have huge amounts of skin/fat to dispose of that would be going into the local waste system if not for the enterprising folks in Rome that decided to make fuel out of it.

If you like eating chicken, then use the rest of it, buy poultry-diesel

Dan

P.S. My exhaust smells like KFC

oldnavy · **Posted:** Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:09 am

dgeist wrote:

I have another reason to support alternative fuels. I'm in Atlanta, and the only major refiners (2 of them) in GA are in Rome area (extreme NW of the state). They don't use soybeans or anything else vegatable-based, but rather good old-fasioned chickens.

You see, the chicken farming industry is huge in North Georgia. Anyone who's taken a recreational ride through the mountains or made a visit in the area knows what I'm talking about. They have huge amounts of skin/fat to dispose of that would be going into the local waste system if not for the enterprising folks in Rome that decided to make fuel out of it.

If you like eating chicken, then use the rest of it, buy poultry-diesel

Dan

P.S. My exhaust smells like KFC

I forsee a roadtrip back to Georgia, been almost 20 years since I visited.

valkraider · **Posted:** Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:22 am

naturist wrote:

The dealer that was working on my 2005 CRD until about 3 weeks ago had extensive discussions with DC regarding my use of biodiesel, and the Word From God is that 5% remains the maximum approved. Admit to use of more as I did, and DC puts your engine on a watch list: ie, they didn't void my warranty, but they are deeply concerned and have their finger on the trigger.

Exactly. If it comes up, always say "5%" no matter what.

Remember though - this cannot be said enough -

NO VEHICLE MANUFACTURER WARRANTS *ANY* FUEL CAUSED PROBLEMS.

Whether that fuel is diesel no. 2, gasoline, biodiesel, ethanol, or any thing else. IF FUEL BREAKS YOUR VEHICLE, ANY VEHICLE - IT IS NOT WARRANTED.

This has *nothing* to do with biodiesel. It is simply *convenient* for them to point to biodiesel - but the responsibility is on YOU (us!) to make sure that the quality of fuel you put in your vehicle is good... I have seen injector pumps blown out from water in regular diesel from a regular fueling station... Biodiesel is nothing new - just be sure you are getting good biodiesel from good places that store it in good containers and transport it in good containers.

naturist wrote:

And Reggie, DON'T BUY BIODIESEL FROM PALM OIL! While it is true that oil palms are among the most efficient species one might grow for oil production, vast tracts of the rainforests of central and south america as well as Indonesia are being burned off to plant oil palms, transforming that aspect of the biofuels program from an environmental plus to a big minus. Into the bargain, the cloud point of palm oil biodiesel is close to 60 degrees F, making it marginally useful north of Atlanta for most of the year.

Throw in the fact that it does nothing to promote the financial health of anybody in the US, as we can't grow oil palms here, and there is no earthly reason to import it, save perhaps the capacity of a handful of folks to make money selling it. Let 'em know you aren't interested in merely lining their pockets instead of the arabs. DECLINE THE PURCHASE OF PALM OIL BIODIESEL!

Tell 'em you only want biodiesel from US crops, and drive away from the pump. It's the only way we can stop this bit of sillyness.

WHAT HE SAID!

YES YES YES!

Do not EVER buy or use Palm based biodiesel. Not only is it potentially worse for your engine - but it defeats the whole point of using biodiesel.

It doesn't help the US economy. And when you cut down RAINFORESTS to grow palm oil - it doesn't help with global warming either...

I am even pushing for legislation that would either restrict or tax heavily biofuels from non US sources for US sale. (Obviously our international members can have their governments do the same if they desire...)

1st fill on Biodiesel

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