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| Let's talk theoretical for a minute http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=77846 |
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| Author: | Tinman [ Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Let's talk theoretical for a minute |
In a year to two the wife will need a new scooter. We like the new GC Or maybe Rubicon if it ends up with the 3.0 VM Motori. We'd like to stick with diesels. Problem is, I feel like all the new diesels really aren't worth having with all the epa crap. I can tolerate the after treatment stuff but egr is just...well let's just say undesirable. With the gestapo cracking down on tuners, there will be no deletes available. So I have a thought. Would a modern diesel, say a new GC, run with the egr re-plumbed to block off the exhaust gas to the intake and pump in fresh air from the turbo? This would have to be done in such a way as to allow the fresh air to pass all the sensors in the egr circuit. I looked at all the pics I could fine of the VM 3.0 and it looks very doable. Potential road blocks: If there is a sensor in the intake or egr circuit that would set a code or limp mode for egr gas temp too low - then no go without moding the sensor. I haven't been able to find specifics about the engine to know the details of the egr operation, but again, we are talking theory here to better understand how these engines work. Next issue: with no egr, the combustion temp will be higher and more NO2 produced. This will overwhelm the SCR. So will the SCR just not be able to catalyze the excess NO2 and more go out the tail pipe, or will SCR get clogged up (maybe like an overwhelmed DPF)? (side note: I noticed that IVECO trucks (with VM engines) have some new models with extremely efficient SCRs that require no egr. They can handle all the NO2 a properly tuned engine can produce. But this maybe only be EURO NO2 standards??? John Deere also has a smaller engine with no DPF (but with egr). Things to come I hope.) If this would work, you would have a very clean running engine (albeit producing a little more NO2 that the epa deems appropriate), should improve mileage, reduce soot and thereby reduce regenerations (again improving mileage). And avoid all the evils of egr so well documented on this forum. What do y'all think. I'm just thinking out loud. |
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| Author: | diesel_guy86 [ Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let's talk theoretical for a minute |
An aftermarket tuner could probably just disable it. Most modern full size truck tuner does this. That would save a lot of headaches trying to get around it, and it will still look "good" to any dealer/ inspection. |
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| Author: | Tinman [ Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let's talk theoretical for a minute |
That's the whole point here. There are not tunes anymore. The EPA crucified Edge industries now everybody is running scared. The plumbing, removing, cutting of emissions devices is easy. Getting the electronics to work is the trick. No one will offer a "delete tune" anymore for fear of the government. So we are stuck with backyard/shadetree work-arounds. |
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| Author: | Glend [ Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let's talk theoretical for a minute |
Pretty sure the 3.0 CRD engine already has the GDE tune available, at least for export models. There will still be ways. Export models will still be tuned to delete EGR. There are no shortage of Euro tuner solutions for the VW and other diesels, including the VM engines. GDE may still be there, certainly their involvement in the export model tunes should not disappear. There will be people that sell kits like SEGR that will deal with it, just takes some development. My understanding is that they can't make reg changes retrospective, so if you have a diesel you like then keep it and there should be no impact. You can always flash the ECU back to stock if you have to meet the old standards in testing. GDE tunes allow you to flash back and forth if required. |
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| Author: | Tinman [ Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let's talk theoretical for a minute |
I seriously doubt Keith is going to offer a delete tune. A tune, yes, but with all the functioning emissions. Not offering deletes to Americans is pretty much an industry standard now. Even foreign companies like EFI Live and Smarty don't offer American deletes anymore. It's pretty much an gentleman's agreement in the aftermarket to abide by the law now so the industry will survive. What we were able to do with the Libby CRD just isn't gonna be an option in the future. If you can't delete the new trucks, you dang sure are not gonna be able to do the GC. |
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| Author: | Glend [ Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let's talk theoretical for a minute |
I recall that Keith was pretty careful with what he said about EGR when they first came out with their tunes. In conversations that I had it was always referred to as EGR reduction, and it took a long time for it to turn into EGR delete in advertising. The symantics of what is offered will certainly be different, and this will be determined by the exact letter of the legal interpretation of what can and cannot be done or claimed. It would be nice to get Keith's views on the future direction of the product/s given the direction this has moved, but I suspect he would revert to his careful language of the past. |
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| Author: | WWDiesel [ Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let's talk theoretical for a minute |
At some point we may all be forced into learning how to modify our own OBC tables using the available can-bus equipment. Or, buy modified programs to flash our OBC from an out of country supplier which the government cannot touch! I understand they are doing some good things with diesel programming overseas.... 
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| Author: | flman [ Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let's talk theoretical for a minute |
Alientech will not connect to 2010 and up Sprinters, the only way is to send in your ECU for bench flashing. So some one is going to break the seal on your ECU. I know that Custom Spooling is doing this, and maybe Renntech. But their tunes in no way compare to GDE. |
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| Author: | MrMopar64 [ Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let's talk theoretical for a minute |
The ECU in the new GC can't be flashed via the OBD port unless with factory tunes via factory tools. If you re-route the EGR to come from a different source you'll end up with all sorts of troubles, the least of which would be codes that would set for a multitude of reasons. Be rest assured that you would have multiple faults. If you effectively re-route the system such that you don't introduce EGR anymore and NOx goes up, then so will the urea consumption. SO now you'd have to refill the tank in very much shorter intervals than if you were to leave the system working normally. The SCR itself won't get "clogged" but it can get poisoned by deposits coming from too much urea flow in various conditions that aren't expected. Then you'll set faults for the catalyst that doesn't work as good as it should. P.S. : No VM engines in IVECO vehicles, those are Fiat Industrial engines. These engines can do SCR only (no EGR) in some applications due to the required emissions limits whether it be on- or off-road, Europe or US, agriculture vs marine, etc. |
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| Author: | diesel_guy86 [ Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let's talk theoretical for a minute |
There will always be a way to get around the egr and other stuff. A "delete kit" is different than simply disabling it. The sled pullers and drag racers will have a way of getting around it to be competitive. |
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| Author: | kjjet [ Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let's talk theoretical for a minute |
I have a new VW Jetta TDI. Before it hit 5k I installed a RawTek exhaust and a Malone tune. No more EPA Crap. All I can say is, Yes its getting harder to get around and Mod new Diesels, so do your homework prior to purchasing a new one. I would stay away from the new Jeep GC Diesel. My research shows not much interest in mod's yet. + its a VM engine? & its a Jeep? Bad combination. Good luck KJJET |
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| Author: | Tinman [ Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let's talk theoretical for a minute |
Thank you Mr Mopar for your usual excellent comments. I have heard of SCR "urea poisoning" but didn't know what it was. I would have no problem with using more DEF if it would I could eliminate EGR. But you answered that part of my question. As far as the EGR itself, I wasn't aware it was that complicated. I wish I could have an off the record conversation with you just for my own edification (I guess I'm a closet engineer). BTW, thanks for the correction about the IVECO engine, I guess I assumed it was a VM engine since FIAT and VM are connected. Still it'd be nice with we could see that in the future. A few other comments: The market for mods on these is small and now that things are so complicated it is unlikely there will be many options. These will never be sled pullers or drag racers so not too many people will push the aftermarket for that level of performance (including deletes). VM and Jeep, yeah a bad combo. But I really have no other good option. No BMW (my favorite diesel SUV b/o the engine set up), VW or Porsche dealer anywhere around so I'm wondering if the Jeep is a viable set up. Reading and modifying OBC tables takes a tool to do it. It takes EFI Live many months to years to produce a product for the much larger and profitable truck market. And even then you can't access egr and dpf files on new trucks. |
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| Author: | MrMopar64 [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let's talk theoretical for a minute |
I'm not sure how the VW's Malone tune works, but the ECU for the Jeep would have to be board-flashed with the case opened up for the aftermarket. There's always a way to defeat things, but the complexity is to the point where you need to have worked in that industry for a while and know how things work intimately. Unfortunately the EPA has really cracked down on aftermarket companies that blatantly defeat emissions devices. I think Edge was the one most publicly crucified for it, but it's making the market such that others don't want to take the risk of making such claims. I know that EFILive is promoting that it won't give users the know-how to modify things that are emissions-defeating. I think modifying lines of hex code manually would be brutally painful, especially given the huge amount of code and data that's present these days and trying to decipher what it means...you'd have better luck watching paint dry or counting leaves in the rain forest. |
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| Author: | kjjet [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let's talk theoretical for a minute |
With the VW Malone tune. You remove the ECU and send it to a Malone dealer for tuning. |
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| Author: | Turbo Tim [ Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let's talk theoretical for a minute |
Quote: With the VW Malone tune. You remove the ECU and send it to a Malone dealer for tuning. Nope, I "Rented" the programmer and put the European Tune in with the EGR delete. All EGR CRAP is off my VW and does it run better. New problem now is that the front tires make funny squealing noises when stomping on the skinny pedal. Renting the programmer means that I did not have to disassemblel the front engine compartment to get the computer out. All was programmed in a few minutes. |
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| Author: | kjjet [ Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let's talk theoretical for a minute |
Turbo Tim wrote: Quote: With the VW Malone tune. You remove the ECU and send it to a Malone dealer for tuning. Nope, I "Rented" the programmer and put the European Tune in with the EGR delete. All EGR CRAP is off my VW and does it run better. New problem now is that the front tires make funny squealing noises when stomping on the skinny pedal. Renting the programmer means that I did not have to disassemblel the front engine compartment to get the computer out. All was programmed in a few minutes. Correct.. You can do it that way also. I just sent mine in. No tools were needed to take my ECM out. Take less than a Minute. Some have a locking bracket, mine did not. |
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| Author: | MrMopar64 [ Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Let's talk theoretical for a minute |
Ahh okay. I've not seen much advertisement of such handheld units for my Touareg, i'll have to look more. |
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