LOST JEEPS
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/

No start
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=77861		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  racertracer [ Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  No start
Help.

Here's what I'm experiencing and I need help with.

This morning it was 33 degrees out and the CRD had been sitting all night, the engine heater was not plugged in and it didn't want to start.

I checked the fuses and they looked good, checked the fuel plunger and it had enough pressure but I pushed it a few times just for good measure. I have the 2nd generation fuel/heater installed and I never had an air in fuel problem.

So I decided to give it a shot of starting fluid....... it was hard to start at first but it finally fired up and it sounded fine.

Took it out for a 15 minutes drive, parked it and shut the engine off for 5 minutes then tried to restart it and it started normally.

So I drove it back home, shut the engine off for an hour and then tried to start it up again but no go.

So I gave it a small shot of starting fluid again and it started with difficulty but it was fine.

It is now plugged in waiting for the morning.

Any ideas as to what the problem could be?

68,000 miles on the vehicle and I recently poured injector cleaner through the tank, something I do once a month with Seafoam.

There is a 3 year old Sears P1 battery in it and I did jump it to start, I drained it this morning though while trying to start it.

Not sure if the battery is the problem. What is the voltage needed to start it.
Author:  Hexus [ Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: No start
Replace the Fuel Filter, replace the ASD relay.

Report back, that is the cheapest place to start.
Author:  DOC4444 [ Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: No start
Make sure to leave the battery on a computer controlled charger overnight, disconnect, let it sit for an hour and then load test. The battery could be the problem. On a KJ CRD, it can have enough juice to crank, but not enough for the ECU, resulting in not firing the injectors.

I have been told using ether in a diesel is REALLY bad, something about skyrocketing cylinder pressures and blown head gaskets.

Anyone else want to comment?

DOC
Author:  Glend [ Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: No start
My guess is the glow plugs. Did you allow the plugs time to heat up when you first tried? Did the glow plug light come on and go off before you tried? The success after it was warm, when the glow plugs are not required, is further evidence its the plugs. The starter spray would have a lower flash point than diesel and took some time to get into the cylinders where the compression heat could set it off.
Author:  racertracer [ Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: No start
Hex, relay checked out OK, fuel filter replaced.

Glend, you may be right.

I have the metal glow plugs installed and I did wait for the glow plug curlicue light to go off before turning over the engine. It didn't want to start.

I have noticed that these new metal glow plugs don't work as well as the original ceramic plugs. The ceramic plugs were quick to start the engine.

I am wondering if it could be the battery.
Author:  diesel_guy86 [ Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: No start
For the record, ether is used on factory new diesel engines in the Ag/ construction industry. No glow plugs at all. Ether is hard on idi diesels because of there inherent design. The secret to using ether is to start cranking the engine and then spray. You don't want ether to hit hot glow plugs. If you can't crank then spray, then you can spray and turn the key straight to start. Do not let the glow plugs cycle. These motors are low (to me) compression, 17.5:1 And should have some good tolerance to ether, just don't overdue it.
Author:  Glend [ Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: No start
Its easy to verify the individual glow plugs, just measure the resistance from the individual plug wires on the connector to earth. Good plugs should show low resistance at around five -eight ohms, open circuit is dead and high resistance is not good either. It could also be the glow plug module
Author:  Brianawd [ Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: No start
DOC4444 wrote:

I have been told using ether in a diesel is REALLY bad, something about skyrocketing cylinder pressures and blown head gaskets.


ether has been used for years to start diesels. Fact is when everything was still mechanical injection on the older semi's they has ether injection to help start them in colder weather. Even the new trucks still use in on really cold area's. I have seen lots of trucks out of Canada that are still using ether injection for starting.
Author:  racertracer [ Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: No start
Doc, I'm trying to locate a computer controlled battery charger.

Is there another way to use a standard battery charger without damaging this dry cell battery? I have one of those ready to go.

I recall a post about charging the Sears AGM battery by using another battery connected to it and a standard type charger connected to that, without damaging the unit. I just can't find the post.

Would a weak battery turn off the power to the Glow plugs?

Glend, if the no start condition was due to failed glow plugs or glow plug relay, would I not see a check engine light on the dash with an indicative code to that affect? I have no codes but I will check them in the morning anyway.
Author:  racertracer [ Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: No start
battery checked ok.

GP checked OK
Author:  papaindigo [ Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: No start
Search Amazon for "automotive battery charger ssc-1000a" should pop up 10/12/15 amp charger options for decent prices. Much smaller and lighter than the older non-computer chargers and more self contained.

I've seen some chat about cycle the key and hence the glow plugs several times to get them hotter but at 33F they should not be an issue. I'd lean more toward fuel supply or possibly battery but that's just a guess.
Author:  kjjet [ Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: No start
As long as you have good glow plugs the jeep should start! Even if its not plugged in it should start but run a bit ruff for 20 seconds.

My guess is the battery is low. There is no real time foolproof way to assure your battery has the cranking amps it needs.
I would replace it. Make sure the new one has a minimum of 800 CCA. Advance Auto parts Gold is what I have. Exact fit.

Good Luck.
KJJET
Author:  racertracer [ Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: No start
Still nothing.... battery charged 13.2 volts, glow plug light comes on, block heater plugged in for hours, just once today i gave it a shot of starting fluid and it had little effect. No start

Just turns and turns.
Author:  CIMARRON13 [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: No start
It may not be associated with the same thing but I had the same issue with my 7.3 diesel. It ended up being the glow plug relay not heating up glow plugs. "Wait to start" light came on and off like normal. Fires right up now that I replaced it. Before it took 10 minutes to start on a cold morning even when plugged in.
Author:  racertracer [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: No start
CIMARRON13 wrote:
It may not be associated with the same thing but I had the same issue with my 7.3 diesel. It ended up being the glow plug relay not heating up glow plugs. "Wait to start" light came on and off like normal. Fires right up now that I replaced it. Before it took 10 minutes to start on a cold morning even when plugged in.


I had the old relay from my previous CRD and swapped it.... still nothing.
Author:  Glend [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: No start
Is there power to the glow plug module? Assuming you can still start with started fluid spray and that it will then run ok sort of negates a fuel delivery issue I would think.
Author:  racertracer [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: No start
Glend wrote:
Is there power to the glow plug module?


Yes


Glend wrote:
Assuming you can still start with started fluid spray and that it will then run ok sort of negates a fuel delivery issue I would think.


It no longer starts when using starting fluid as it did yesterday.
Author:  Glend [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: No start
Racer, OK, I was just reading through the Service Manual re ignition control and glow plug module. Here it is and you probably have seen this right?

When the ignition (key) switch is placed in the ON
position, a signal is sent from the sensors to the ECM
relaying current engine coolant temperature and ambient
air temperature.
After receiving this signal, the ECM will determine if,
when and for how long of a period the glow plugs
should be activated. This is done before, during and
after the engine is started. Whenever the glow plug
module (2) is activated, it will control the 7 volt high
amperage circuit for the operation of the four glow
plugs.
The Glow Plug lamp is tied to this circuit. Lamp operation
is also controlled by the ECM.
With a cold engine, the glow plug module and glow plugs may be activated for a maximum time of 200 seconds.
Refer to the following Glow Plug Control chart for a temperature/time comparison of the glow plug relay operation.
In this chart, Pre-Heat and Post-Heat times are mentioned. Pre-Heat is the amount of time the glow plug control
circuit is activated when the ignition (key) is switched ON, without the engine running. Post-Heat is the amount of
time the glow plug control circuit is activated after the engine is operated. The Glow Plug lamp will not be activated
during the post-heat cycle.

The starting using the glow plugs is controlled by the ECM, which then becomes a worry.

Since it no longer runs, I'd go back to verifying the fuel supply on the basis that diesels only need fuel and air. Can we assume the air supply is ok - no FCV butterfly strangling the air supply (but it should at least try to start).

Has the fuel head been bled and reprimed? I just checked the temperature in Oxford Conn and it's -9F. I used to have a vehicle back home in Canada that had it's fuel line freeze up due to water in the fuel, is that a possible? Could fuel delivery be blocked?
Is the vehicle outside in the cold or in a heated garage?
Author:  Billwill [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: No start
Is the engine turning over but not starting?

Is the ASD relay energizing?

Do you have SKIS installed and is the SKIS light on the cluster going out after a few seconds?

Have you extracted any codes from the ECU?

Definitely check that fuel is flowing...without any air in the fuel pipes.

:?
Author:  racertracer [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: No start
Glend wrote:
Racer, OK, I was just reading through the Service Manual re ignition control and glow plug module. Here it is and you probably have seen this right?

Yes, but I vaguely remember it.
Glend wrote:
The starting using the glow plugs is controlled by the ECM, which then becomes a worry.

I sure hope not.
Glend wrote:
Can we assume the air supply is ok

I will have to dedicate more free time when I have it and do a more in depth study. Hopefully the temps will go up a little so that my fingers don't freeze.
Glend wrote:
- no FCV butterfly strangling the air supply (but it should at least try to start).

Any ideas on how to check to see if the FCV butterfly is opening up?
Billwill wrote:
Is the engine turning over but not starting?

Yes it turns over but it does not start.
Billwill wrote:
Is the ASD relay energizing?

I believe it is, I checked that yesterday by swapping it out with a similar one near by.
Billwill wrote:
Do you have SKIS installed and is the SKIS light on the cluster going out after a few seconds?

I don't know what SKIS is, if it's an after market device for the CRD, then no I do not have it. The only device installed is the GDE hot tune.
Billwill wrote:
Have you extracted any codes from the ECU?
None.
Billwill wrote:
Definitely check that fuel is flowing...without any air in the fuel pipes.
I will try my best to find it. Is there an easy way to check for fuel flow and also air in the system once it has passed the fuel/water separator filter?

The cold weather makes working on the vehicle a little difficult. If I had known that the CRD was going to have problems starting , I would have moved the other car out of the garage before it died in from of it.

Thank you, I appreciate the assistance.
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/