kjjet wrote:
It takes seconds to do it correctly. Done wrong may cause you days of extra work and money.
Or weeks, if you made something wrong...
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| Rockers and Timing belt http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=77887 |
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| Author: | gidb36 [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rockers and Timing belt |
Love the wealth of information here. Really is a treasure trove of information about our little SUV's Looking to do a timing belt and rockers at the same time and had a couple questions about the job. 1. Can anyone recommend the best place to get all the parts at a fairly competitive price? With a mortgage, a new member to the family coming, and my student loans, my budget is quite limited comparatively to my youthful years. I'd need everything necessary to do a rocker arm/timing belt job completely. 2. I'm considering the homemade tools method for timing since my budget doesn't allow more than is necessary. I have a tensioner spanning wrench from my previous VW TDI years which I think will work for the tension part of the job. Is this unwise to do? With many VW timing belt jobs under my belt and all the resources available here I feel I could perform the job. 3. Any other advice would be greatly appreciated for these jobs. After this job is complete my hope is to swap torque converters in the future to make this my vehicle for another hundred thousand miles. |
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| Author: | papaindigo [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rockers and Timing belt |
Just to start the discussion: 1. are you doing your rockers for a reason or just because? If the former then ok but if the latter I would not recommend doing so. 2. are you doing the water pump? 3. if you are going in as far as the water pump then a decent writeup with DIY tools is at http://www.beesvillebeefarm.com/jeep.html but skip the hard steps of replacing the entire water pump and just replace the front 1/2 which is where the moving parts are. I'd also watch Sir Sam's how to You Tubes except if he includes removal of the radiator and such that makes access wonderfully easy but is not essential to do. FYI the flywheel pin can be a 6mm long allen key, see the 05 FSM for how to. 4. probably the best single source for parts is idParts as they have a timing belt "kit" (get the GRAF front water pump 1/2 not the entire OEM pump) and a decent price on rockers. You might could do better shopping around but I'm not sure it's worth the effort although sometimes Keith at GDE has really good deals on things like a set of rockers. I would STRONGLY recommend adding your location to your signature as that will enhance input from folks on the forum who might be near enough and willing enough to help out hands on. |
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| Author: | kjjet [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rockers and Timing belt |
WELCOME... Yes there is lots of information here. First be sure to down load the Service Manual for your Jeep its located in Sam"s Noob Guide. There are lots of placed to get parts, Start with ID Parts. Here is the procedures to replace the timing belt: minus the Pic's Jeep Liberty CRD Timing Belt Replacement Procedure (2.8l diesel) Revised by KJJET 1. Remove cooling fan and shroud. *In order to remove them there is two methods. A. Remove the grill, bumper, inner grill and electric fan. Then remove the bolts holding the intercooler and radiator. Now with the intercooler and radiator pulled back the fan and shroud can be accessed. Remove the shroud intercooler and radiator then move on to removing the fan. OR B. Remove the grill and gain access to the intercooler and radiator bolts and remove them. This will give you a inch or two to access the shroud and fan. The fan assembly is best removed with a very large crescent wrench on the nut just behind the fan viscous coupling. Then hit the wrench in a counter clockwise direction with a small sledgehammer. It may help to spray with penetrating oil. Worst case, wedge something behind the fan drive pulley to keep it from rotating and then use the sledge method. 2. Remove accessory drive belt. 3. Remove both idler pulley (right hand thread, 16 mm) (a), power steering pump (3 bolts that you get to by rotating the pulley, 10 mm) (b), accessory belt tensioner (c), cooling fan pulley and bracket( 4-13 mm bolts) (d), crankshaft pulley/damper (4-10mm bolts, you may need to hold the pulley by the 21 mm center bolt) (e), and alternator (2-13 mm bolts on the front and 1-15 mm on the back side-note you will have to loosen the 2-13 mm bolts for the bracket that holds the alternator to the cylinder head) (f) . 4. Remove the front timing cover (7mm bolt x 17) 5. Remove both plugs in the camshaft cover (one on intake side behind alternator placement, one on exhaust side behind thermostat area). Remove the plugs with a 5mm hex. 6. Rotate the engine clockwise only with a 21mm socket on the front of the crankshaft until the crank timing mark is located at 90 degrees (3:00) and a 6mm hex key engages the hole in the flexplate/flywheel. 7. Inspect the two openings in the camshaft cover to see if the holes in the camshafts align. If so, install the two pins into the respective camshaft. If not, remove the 6mm hex key and rotate the engine 360 degrees at the crankshaft and re-inspect. Note: this may take up to 3 rotations to get all three installed. 8. Loosen the timing belt tensioner and rotate it counterclockwise by hand until slack is sufficient to remove the belt from the pulley. Remove the old timing belt. 9. With a sprocket holding tool, Loosen both camshaft sprockets by rotating the bolt (17mm) counterclockwise. It is sufficient to have them loose; they do not need to be removed. 10. Install new idler pulleys: remove them by turning clockwise to loosen then counter clockwise to tighten. Tighten to 53N-m or 39 Ft Lbs. Loosely install a new belt tensioner. 11. Ensure that the high-pressure fuel pump pulley is oriented Properly (see picture) and fit the new belt to the crankshaft pulley. Install a small vise grip at the crankshaft to hold the belt in place while installing the belt counter clockwise starting with the fuel pump, idler pulley, cam shaft sprockets, idler pulley, water pump and lastly over the newly installed timing belt tensioner. 12. With the new belt properly installed, tension the timing belt with the tensioner as shown in the picture. If the proper handle isn’t available, the tensioner can be moved with two 3mm hex keys. Rotate the tensioner until the proper gap on the pulley is achieved. Tighten the center fixing bolt to 30N-m or 22 Ft Lbs 13. With a sprocket holding tool, tighten both camshaft sprockets to 108N-m or 80 Ft-Lbs. 13. Check tensioner and reset proper tension as needed. 13. Remove the two camshaft pins and crankshaft hex key. Rotate the Clockwise only 21mm socket wrench, 720 degrees, re-check the tensioner and reset proper tension as needed. 14. Reinstall the timing belt cover. 15. As needed install new accessory belt tensioner, idler pulleys and reinstall everything in steps 1 thru 3. This is the correct way to set and install the timing belt. (BY THE BOOK) There are other ways but this is the correct way! I have a procedure for the intake removal, but not at home with me today. I can get it for you if desired? Good Luck KJJET |
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| Author: | papaindigo [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rockers and Timing belt |
PS while you are in there do anyone of several fan shroud mods so future access is easier and apply some anti-seize to the fan nut which makes future removal as simple as a light tap. See viewtopic.php?f=98&t=64278&p=709322#p709322 Also if you don't pull everything off the front end as some recommend be sure to insert a piece of cardboard or a towel in front of the fan while you are removing the fan and shroud together to prevent damage to the radiator. Be advised the fan shroud "ears" where the bolts go in must be tilted to get past the hoses. |
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| Author: | samse2101 [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rockers and Timing belt |
Hi, this guide helped me a lot -> http://colorado4wheel.com/content/KJ_TB.html Also take a look at that videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o_FJpBEKjk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjhhxMzzyh8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbi3rRSEdA4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_uOjVG1XEs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcVb_lWPLR4 by, samse |
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| Author: | kjjet [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rockers and Timing belt |
Yes...great videos, but watch the short cuts. They may cause and or create problems. Follow the Service Manual! There are good reasons for the way they assemble and install the timing system. It takes seconds to do it correctly. Done wrong may cause you days of extra work and money. Good Luck KJJET |
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| Author: | samse2101 [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rockers and Timing belt |
kjjet wrote: It takes seconds to do it correctly. Done wrong may cause you days of extra work and money. Or weeks, if you made something wrong...
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| Author: | gidb36 [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rockers and Timing belt |
Appreciate the replies. Primary reason for Rocker Arms is due to the age of the engine (169000 miles). Also my fuel mileage is not where I expected it to be with it now at about 18mpg over the last three fuel ups even with a GDE Eco tune. Previous owner of the vehicle indicated to me that he had installed the torque pro app on his phone and it appeared to be on the low end of acceptable. I just don't know what to do with it. The vehicle performs well and starts in the cold just fine. My only reason for doing the belt is due to me being in there replacing the rockers. The Belt was actually replaced just last year and has another 50000 miles on it. Suggestions? Should I trust these rockers? |
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| Author: | papaindigo [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rockers and Timing belt |
I'll defer to others on how to diagnose possible rocker wear and I know nothing about torque pro but I would not just replace rockers based on engine age or mpg. Not saying rockers cannot wear with age or that they cannot relate to lower mpg. For example as I noted before where are you located and what are the ambient temps, what type of driving (average distance, speeds, terrain), what's the condition of your fuel filter/air filter/MAP sensor, are the variable vanes on the turbo fully functional, is your area subject to "winter" fuel, are you using biodiesel, have you run some diesel kleen thru the engine to clean the injectors, is your temp gauge when warmed up almost dead vertical or does it sit well to the left of vertical, are your front brakes dragging due to swollen rubber boot, are your rear parking brakes rusty and dragging, if you just changed tires have you run a GPS check to let you manually adjust for any new odometer error, etc. I could go on but won't I ask because many of these factors individually or together can significantly impact mpg and easily drop mpg in town from the low 20s to the upper teens. Just a bad tstat cut my EcoTune short distance in town mpg from 24ish to 21ish and I have no clue why pulling a particular flat bed trailer, good bearings, cut expected highway mpg from an expected 22 to 18. |
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| Author: | ATXKJ [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rockers and Timing belt |
From a different thread - GreenDieselEngineering wrote: The mileage seems to vary. It may be more correlated to general maintenance practices and duty cycle. There is not a clear diagnosis path, but measuring the mass air flow at idle with the EGR/FCV off will give the best indicator of worn rocker arms. A good engine will have flowrates in the range of 130-140 lb/hr at idle. If the flow is lower by 30% or more, it indicates the valves are not fully opening. Of course, these numbers infer that the turbo is working properly and no blockage in air filter. there's a way to read that - I'm just not sure what it is but tracking down a reader - sure seems cheaper that pulling the engine apart |
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| Author: | ATXKJ [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rockers and Timing belt |
Okay different thread - apparently there's a Torque App for Android based phone that can read the values CATCRD wrote: GreenDieselEngineering wrote: Yes those are symtoms of bad rocker arms. The best test I have found is measuring the air mass at idle. You need a decent tool to measure the MAF. The units of measure vary based on the tool used. A drbIII uses mg/stroke. A good engine is in the range of 640-720 mg/str and an engine with bad rockers (less valve lift thus less flow) is in the range of 500-550 mg/stroke. You must wait at least 60 seconds at idle for the EGR to shut off and make the test valid. I used the Torque app on my droid to measure the MAF rate on my CRDs at idle. Both are 15.1 g/s, which if you do the math to convert to mg/stroke is about 700 (including an adjustment for the less dense air here at 5000 ft elevation). So that's pretty encouraging. One has had EGR disabled since 19k with 60k on the odo now. The other was disabled at 25k, with 80k now. For anyone else with this app, the default units are g/s or grams per second. The conversion is g/s * 1000 * 60 / 760 / 2 * D where 760 was my idle speed with a fully warm engine, and D is the air density adjustment from sea level. I used 1.17 to approximate what my engine would be pulling in terms of mass flow at sea level. It would be interesting if a couple other people here on the board would check this and post results, since I know a couple people have the capability. |
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| Author: | gidb36 [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rockers and Timing belt |
Previous owner posted a value of 17g/s at warm and 16.3g/s at cold idle. Based on those conversion values do you think a rocker arm replacement is a good plan? Current location of Sioux Falls SD. Cleaned MAP and MAF. Need to investigate drive train issues a bit more. |
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| Author: | kjjet [ Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rockers and Timing belt |
gidb36 wrote: Appreciate the replies. Primary reason for Rocker Arms is due to the age of the engine (169000 miles). Also my fuel mileage is not where I expected it to be with it now at about 18mpg over the last three fuel ups even with a GDE Eco tune. Previous owner of the vehicle indicated to me that he had installed the torque pro app on his phone and it appeared to be on the low end of acceptable. I just don't know what to do with it. The vehicle performs well and starts in the cold just fine. My only reason for doing the belt is due to me being in there replacing the rockers. The Belt was actually replaced just last year and has another 50000 miles on it. Suggestions? Should I trust these rockers? Without knowing the history of your engine. I would not would not know what to tell you. But if I was wanting to keep the CRD for a long time, the mechanic in me says. Take it apart and build it up correctly. Readings may help you decide, but there are lots variables that may change the readings. Good luck KJJET |
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| Author: | Glend [ Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rockers and Timing belt |
MAF test values above 17 g/s are ok, based on what I saw on the MAF test thread. Not the best but ok. Newer engine will be above 18 g/s for sure, all other things being equal. But the number can be affected by dirty air cleaners, leaks in the intake or intercooler, etc. There was a thread that looked at measured rocker wear on torn down heads. |
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| Author: | LMWatBullRun [ Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rockers and Timing belt |
gidb36 wrote: Appreciate the replies. Primary reason for Rocker Arms is due to the age of the engine (169000 miles). Also my fuel mileage is not where I expected it to be with it now at about 18mpg over the last three fuel ups even with a GDE Eco tune. Previous owner of the vehicle indicated to me that he had installed the torque pro app on his phone and it appeared to be on the low end of acceptable. I just don't know what to do with it. The vehicle performs well and starts in the cold just fine. My only reason for doing the belt is due to me being in there replacing the rockers. The Belt was actually replaced just last year and has another 50000 miles on it. Suggestions? Should I trust these rockers? There are many examples of rockers being worn out in well under 100k miles. Failure to mitigate the high soot load created by the EGR system appears to be the primary reason for this and there are any number of ways to deal with that, (GDE tune, SEGR, filtration mods, etc.) but if the vehicle has not had some sort of soot mitigation installed it is likely that the rockers are worn with that many miles. It is also possible that they are fine. You mentioned a GDE tune; when was that installed? Recently? Given the amount of work required to get to the rockers, the question you have to ask yourself is which would you rather spend, time or money? One possible way to deal with this issue is to do a teardown one weekend, order the parts you need and reassemble the next. The other issue at that mileage is whether the intake and/or the intercooler is choked with soot. Again, many people here have seen this issue. If you did not personally see the intake and IC checked and cleared of soot deposits, then this is possible. I was amazed at the quantity of soot I found in my intake with only 90k miles. LMW |
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| Author: | LMWatBullRun [ Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rockers and Timing belt |
papaindigo wrote: I'll defer to others on how to diagnose possible rocker wear and I know nothing about torque pro but I would not just replace rockers based on engine age or mpg. Not saying rockers cannot wear with age or that they cannot relate to lower mpg. For example as I noted before where are you located and what are the ambient temps, what type of driving (average distance, speeds, terrain), what's the condition of your fuel filter/air filter/MAP sensor, are the variable vanes on the turbo fully functional, is your area subject to "winter" fuel, are you using biodiesel, have you run some diesel kleen thru the engine to clean the injectors, is your temp gauge when warmed up almost dead vertical or does it sit well to the left of vertical, are your front brakes dragging due to swollen rubber boot, are your rear parking brakes rusty and dragging, if you just changed tires have you run a GPS check to let you manually adjust for any new odometer error, etc. I could go on but won't I ask because many of these factors individually or together can significantly impact mpg and easily drop mpg in town from the low 20s to the upper teens. Just a bad tstat cut my EcoTune short distance in town mpg from 24ish to 21ish and I have no clue why pulling a particular flat bed trailer, good bearings, cut expected highway mpg from an expected 22 to 18. All good points and things to check. Failure to align the fuel pump when doing the belt can lose 2 or 3 mpg, based on what I hear of other's experience. |
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| Author: | jws84_02 [ Wed Jan 01, 2014 5:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rockers and Timing belt |
LMWatBullRun wrote: papaindigo wrote: I'll defer to others on how to diagnose possible rocker wear and I know nothing about torque pro but I would not just replace rockers based on engine age or mpg. Not saying rockers cannot wear with age or that they cannot relate to lower mpg. For example as I noted before where are you located and what are the ambient temps, what type of driving (average distance, speeds, terrain), what's the condition of your fuel filter/air filter/MAP sensor, are the variable vanes on the turbo fully functional, is your area subject to "winter" fuel, are you using biodiesel, have you run some diesel kleen thru the engine to clean the injectors, is your temp gauge when warmed up almost dead vertical or does it sit well to the left of vertical, are your front brakes dragging due to swollen rubber boot, are your rear parking brakes rusty and dragging, if you just changed tires have you run a GPS check to let you manually adjust for any new odometer error, etc. I could go on but won't I ask because many of these factors individually or together can significantly impact mpg and easily drop mpg in town from the low 20s to the upper teens. Just a bad tstat cut my EcoTune short distance in town mpg from 24ish to 21ish and I have no clue why pulling a particular flat bed trailer, good bearings, cut expected highway mpg from an expected 22 to 18. All good points and things to check. Failure to align the fuel pump when doing the belt can lose 2 or 3 mpg, based on what I hear of other's experience. I think this happened to me. How do you get the fuel pump back in time? |
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| Author: | papaindigo [ Wed Jan 01, 2014 5:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rockers and Timing belt |
I'm not 100% sure although the pump is never "truly" in time if only because a 3 lobe pump cannot match a 4 cylinder engine cycle so I'm not convinced timing the fuel pump matters. That said on the TB jobs I've been involved with we have taken care to mark 2 pump pulley teeth and the adjacent cover so we can keep the pump in the same "timed" position as it came from the factory. I do know there is a pump timing mark (see the image in the GDE timing belt install PDF) although those marks apparently line up only every 3 engine revolutions or so. I'm speculating, others may know for sure, that if you get the cam pins and flywheel pins in and set the pump marks aligned and then install the TB you will have retimed the pump. |
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| Author: | jws84_02 [ Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rockers and Timing belt |
Thanks papaindigo. I've seen arguments for both the pump being timed and not being timed. I didn't worry about it when I did my tb job and I swear right after I noticed a drop in mpg, unless I am a tooth off, but wouldn't it not run right if that was the case? Sorry op for thread jacking |
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| Author: | Glend [ Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rockers and Timing belt |
There is more to proper belt install than just using the locking pins and witness marks.; I believe the main problem that arises with the injector pump timing is due to failure to eliminate slack between the pump and the crank. That length of belt is the longest unsupported length. Yes there are pump witness marks and you should make your own plus mark the old belt and translate those marks to the new belt. The key to eliminating slack in the span is to back the crank pulley slightly so it grabs a belt tooth in the the proper no slack way, and this backing may only be a very slight amount to engage the tooth. It will run with the slack there but as has been pointed out the economy will suffer, and likely performance. There is no tensioner on that span and if the belt is installed one tooth out the belt tensioner will never be able to pull it into position. Mark the first engaged tooth on the crank and the last engaged tooth on the injection pump before you remove the old belt, and see how tight the belt is over that span before you remove the old one (assuming it was installed correctly previously). |
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