Had to go out to the garage and look



M

_________________
Mike__________________
Black 2006 KJ 2.8L CRD Sport
E-Tecno GX3123 7v Glow Plugs/Rockers/Lifters/Head Gasket/TB @ 277KM - Oct 2014
Transgo 45RFE-HD2 / Tranny Filters / Fresh Fluid - 284KM - Jan 2015

That witness mark does indicate that the pistons are *close* to 90 ATDC, BUT YOU ARE NOT RIGHT ON. Forget about the crankshaft pin in the flywheel (flexplate) it is CRAP and cannot / should not be trusted.

First: pin the cams, UNLOCK the cam pulleys, remove the belt TENSION (but not the belt itself) and rotate the crankshaft just a touch (slightly more than one tooth) clockwise to make the bolt holes PERFECTLY VERTICAL AND HORIZONTAL.

Then re-tension, re-torque the cam pulleys, pull the pins, and try rotating. If it doesn't happen, then you need to go further.

Next step, and it will be fairly easy to do without removing the valve cover:

Remove the timing belt, but leave the cam gears torqued to the cams. You will need them later.
Remove the #1 injector, and find a long rod. Insert the rod to sit on top of the cylinder.
Remove the cam pins, and rotate both cams approximately 1/12 rotation clockwise. They are springloaded and perched on the high points of two lobes, so they will "snap" to a resting place.

NOW, attempt rotating the crankshaft and hopefully you can get it to go around. The point you are looking for is TDC on cylinder #1, then rotate exactly 90 degrees past that, so that the bolt holes are vertical and horizontal. The pinhole in the flexplate is not really relevant, and there are two of them anyway - That are small. There are LOTS of places where the pin would be in the middle of a giant hole. You should have to struggle to find the flex plate hole, it is that precise. If you didn't need to struggle, then you have the wrong location.

Matching the piston movements to TDC is the only way to be absolutely certain, and then stroke a mark on the crankshaft hub to let you know where you are. I usually make my mark for 90 ATDC on the engines I have worked on. You don't need to worry about exhaust stroke or intake stroke at this point, only the cams make that determination. Just get the pistons to go all the way around and stop at 90 ATDC on #1.

Now... I *think* I have rotated an engine by hand in this setup with the valve cover in place - But I cannot remember for certain. I know I've done it with the valve cover off, and all the rockers loose. As far as I know, the engine SHOULD rotate the same way with the cams at this resting position, as all the valves should be fully closed. I could be wrong about that however. IF you feel another barricade at any point, then you will need to remove the valve cover again and try rotating the engine again to eliminate any chances of an obstruction in the balancer or oil pan. I hope for your sake that it rotates!

_________________
Proud supporting vendor of LOST Jeeps
TRAVELING CRD TECH. I come to you!
Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
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Over 125 CRDs currently driving with my timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.

I only know because I noticed a pin hole labeled "TDC" on the flexplate when I was putting the engine back together. I made a mental note of it at the time thinking it might come in handy.

_________________
2005 Liberty CRD Limited
DIY Garage Remanufactured Engine with GDE Full Torque Eco Tune from mile zero.
ARP Studs
Cummins Lift Pump
Transgo HD2 Reprogramming Kit
DIY Rebuilt Tranny Pump
Suncoast Torque Converter
2nd Generation Fuel Head
Sears P1 Battery
Hot Diesel Solutions Thermostat

I agree with geordi, it looks like the crank isn't right at 90*. It's possible that the belt jumped a tooth before you bought it, which would explain why your paint marks are lining up.

_________________
2005 Liberty CRD Limited
DIY Garage Remanufactured Engine with GDE Full Torque Eco Tune from mile zero.
ARP Studs
Cummins Lift Pump
Transgo HD2 Reprogramming Kit
DIY Rebuilt Tranny Pump
Suncoast Torque Converter
2nd Generation Fuel Head
Sears P1 Battery
Hot Diesel Solutions Thermostat

I agree. The process Geordi outlined for finding #1 TDC with a dowel rod through the injector hole will work, but it is imprecise. On my engine, at least, the bolt holes on the crank shaft line up nicely...IOW, get it close to TDC, and from there if you lined up a straight rod between the top and bottom bolt heads, they should point to the midpoint of the timing cover between the cam gears. Now rotate it 90 degrees past that point, again making sure that top and bottom bolts line up with the midpoint of the timing cover at top, and you should be able to find the right indexing hole in the flywheel. For me, it helped to grope around for it with a small piece of wire first, then rotate the crank until that lines up better, then slip the fill-size pin in place.

_________________
George Reiswig
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD
Suncoast, SEGR, lift, InMotion tune, homebrew B100
At 138k, new head & gasket, timing belt, rockers and swearing vocabulary

Thanks Geordi ,
Unfortunately this is where I am at, and it is not rotating further than 90 degrees both cw and ccw .

Did all your steps , and no luck .. Yanked the intake off . All my new rockers where still exactly where they are suppose to be ..

I can't account for the ball end , and small piece of casing from the one lifter .





Here is a gallery of my pictures off all my old rockers.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/116137982192410555920/albums/6076004713328755185

So I'm in a pickle, and I'm sure the wife won't be happy and may draw the line funding wise . Have to look at the options ?

How far will I need to go to find the pieces?
Head will need to come off.
Will the engine need to come out?

It may be up for sale if anyone knows of anybody in Southern Ontario that might want to take on a project.

Mike

_________________
Mike__________________
Black 2006 KJ 2.8L CRD Sport
E-Tecno GX3123 7v Glow Plugs/Rockers/Lifters/Head Gasket/TB @ 277KM - Oct 2014
Transgo 45RFE-HD2 / Tranny Filters / Fresh Fluid - 284KM - Jan 2015

Ouch. If what you are saying actually happened, then I have little to offer save for condolences. You tried turning the crank even with the cams off and it is still binding? Do I understand that right?

Someone with experience breaking into the lower end of this engine will have to advise. I would guess it could have fallen down an oil return galley and ended up between the block and one of the crank weights or something. If so, I can't think of a way you'll find it without pulling the engine. If one piece got down there, I'd be worried that more did, too.

That would suck, mate.

One other thing: to me, your issue now definitely merits its own topic. You might consider pulling the key points of your pickle out and making a new topic. That might get you more targeted replies.

_________________
George Reiswig
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD
Suncoast, SEGR, lift, InMotion tune, homebrew B100
At 138k, new head & gasket, timing belt, rockers and swearing vocabulary

If you've got it back open to the rockers and it still won't rotate freely... Ouch.
Are all the valve tops at the same height?
Try rotating the crankshaft backwards, it won't hurt anything and maybe it will dislodge whatever is in there, to the bottom of the oil pan.

If that doesn't want to work, then the next step is to pull the head, try again... And finally pull the block for a bottom end teardown. Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with that, but I can say that it is all labor and cleaning until you find the obstruction. I didn't think the oil gallery holes were large enough for debris to bother anything, but if those galleries go right to the pan (they should) then you may not get any results without the full teardown.

Sorry dude, this sucks.

Ya , a bit bummed at the moment .. but I can't expect too much as it is a fixer upper and doo doo happens .. couldn't have controlled where the broken parts went .
Valves look to be the same height , and rotated the crank backwards and it stops at Cyl 1 BTC , same going forwards, it will gofrom CYL 1 BTC one full stroke to BTC again .
Head isn't to hard to pull at this point , I have been PB Blaster ' ing the exhaust manifold bolts just in case , and because I like the stuff .. lol

Will start a new thread later when I get a chance .. Thanks Guys ..

_________________
Mike__________________
Black 2006 KJ 2.8L CRD Sport
E-Tecno GX3123 7v Glow Plugs/Rockers/Lifters/Head Gasket/TB @ 277KM - Oct 2014
Transgo 45RFE-HD2 / Tranny Filters / Fresh Fluid - 284KM - Jan 2015

Any possibility there is something sitting on top of piston 1 or 4?

_________________
George Reiswig
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD
Suncoast, SEGR, lift, InMotion tune, homebrew B100
At 138k, new head & gasket, timing belt, rockers and swearing vocabulary

That might be where your chunk of missing rocker/lifter is. From here, it's not much more work to pull the head. It sounds like it's worth taking a look.

Another option would be a to have a look with a borescope, and a third might be to fish around with one of those telescoping magnetic pick up tools.

I would be compelled to pull the head however.

_________________
2005 Liberty CRD Limited
DIY Garage Remanufactured Engine with GDE Full Torque Eco Tune from mile zero.
ARP Studs
Cummins Lift Pump
Transgo HD2 Reprogramming Kit
DIY Rebuilt Tranny Pump
Suncoast Torque Converter
2nd Generation Fuel Head
Sears P1 Battery
Hot Diesel Solutions Thermostat

This is exactly what I have been hunting for this afternoon at local Automotive and tool stores. All the ones I have found the ends are too big ti fit down the oil way. The one I have in the garage is just a straight extendable one from Harbour Frieght , but man is it handy for pulling stuff out of the abyss under the motor in this thing .

I've found this one online that I think I will order .

http://king-tool.com/storefront/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=2


Mike

_________________
Mike__________________
Black 2006 KJ 2.8L CRD Sport
E-Tecno GX3123 7v Glow Plugs/Rockers/Lifters/Head Gasket/TB @ 277KM - Oct 2014
Transgo 45RFE-HD2 / Tranny Filters / Fresh Fluid - 284KM - Jan 2015

Don't waste the time going down the oil gallery, it does seem that you are looking at something on one of the pistons. I don't believe that your obstruction is in the oil pan on the balancer assembly, as the jam point wouldn't be at the same location each time - it could move as the weights do.

Pull the glow plugs (since they are EASY to get at now) and rig up a shop vac with some clear tubing and a little screen at the end of the tube where it transitions to the shop vac hose - This will let you see anything that you find.

Now... Put the suction into the injector hole, and apply the tip of your shop blowgun to the glowplug hole, and let it rip. If there is anything on the piston, you SHOULD get it in short order. People have successfully extracted tips of glow plugs this way, so big pieces shouldn't have a problem going for the same ride.

Good luck.

The thing that throws me about the "something on the piston" theory is his statement of 90 degrees. It would have to be something pretty big to cause that much interference, wouldn't it? I mean really bigger than a part of an HLA. That's why I thought of something binding between the crank and the block.

If he managed to bind the valves open when/if he mistimed it and tried to turn it, open valves might step in far enough, but...the ball joint on an HLA? That would probably fall down into the low pocket on the piston and wait until the engine was running to really cause damage, wouldn't it?

_________________
George Reiswig
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD
Suncoast, SEGR, lift, InMotion tune, homebrew B100
At 138k, new head & gasket, timing belt, rockers and swearing vocabulary

I understood it to be 180* from TDC to TDC ish.

_________________
2005 Liberty CRD Limited
DIY Garage Remanufactured Engine with GDE Full Torque Eco Tune from mile zero.
ARP Studs
Cummins Lift Pump
Transgo HD2 Reprogramming Kit
DIY Rebuilt Tranny Pump
Suncoast Torque Converter
2nd Generation Fuel Head
Sears P1 Battery
Hot Diesel Solutions Thermostat

Not sure I understand you, Mike. Full rotation of the crank (360 degrees) brings a cylinder full cycle, right? 180 would take it from TDC to bottom of the stroke. My point is just that he said he couldn't rotate it more than 90 degrees in either direction (+-90, or 180 degrees total). If that is accurate, that seems like it is a saying that the first 90 degrees of the stroke in either direction are taken up by whatever is on his piston. The stroke is 100mm, so it would take a 50mm object sitting in just the right spot on the piston to do that. That seems too big. Again, if his statement is accurate.

Even if he meant 90 degrees of movement total, that means it would need to be an even bigger thing, right? Blocking out 270 degrees of piston travel, so about 80mm?

But if it is something sitting under one of the crank counterweights, balance shaft, or similar, it might bind every 90 degrees or so...depending on what the effective fraction of a circle that piece is, and where the broken shard sits. So if I'm just going based on that one statement, I'd bet against it being something on the piston.

So...how much movement is there really, mecne?

_________________
George Reiswig
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD
Suncoast, SEGR, lift, InMotion tune, homebrew B100
At 138k, new head & gasket, timing belt, rockers and swearing vocabulary

Move this discussion into this thread " Rocker change gone bad "

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=80527

_________________
Mike__________________
Black 2006 KJ 2.8L CRD Sport
E-Tecno GX3123 7v Glow Plugs/Rockers/Lifters/Head Gasket/TB @ 277KM - Oct 2014
Transgo 45RFE-HD2 / Tranny Filters / Fresh Fluid - 284KM - Jan 2015

Hi!

I hope I won't get tossed out for owning a Voyager and not a Jeep, but the VM 2.5 CRD is the same in both vehicles, so please be nice to me

I'm in the middle of a cam belt replacement. I figured that when 7 teeth in a row on the belt are missing, it's about time, right? The background is that the car stopped when I was starting in an intersection and only came a few meters. Restarting the engine failed, but on the first attempt I got some hesitant response and then not even the slightest happened apart from the starter spinning the engine. I also noticed two or three very slight twitches when cruising on the highway the preceeding week. Just noticable to me but passengers never noticed it.

A shop helped me troubleshoot and they came to the conclusion that no diesel reached the injectors but reached the injection pump. After that they pried open the top of the cam belt cover and saw that some teeth were missing. Their verdict was that the car should be scrapped, thereby telling me that they didn't have a clue as to what this engine is like. You and other people on different forums seem to have the opinion that even a broken belt is not cause for scrapping the engine. This particular Voyager is a 2003 that has gone 340 000 km and probably never had a cam belt change (until now), so it might not the in the best of shape altogether, but I figured it was worth a shot at replacing the cam belt.

So far, I've removed everything including the cam belt cover and I can see the extent of the damage on the belt, the most apparent is the section with 7 teeth missing in a row. Now for the big question: why did the engine stop? Did the smallest sprocket (crankshaft) miss a tooth on the belt at some point and the cams got one notch out of sync or did something else happen? Total slip? Is it actually the injection pump? It looks like the crankshaft sprocket engages 8 or 9 teeth, so 7 missing is borderline. I think the best way forward is to install the new cam belt correctly (thanks for the detailed procedures!) and just try to start the engine. I'm just wondering how on earth I'm supposed to be able to access the rear allen bolt to be able to lock that cam. The front allen bolt was easily removed after removing the altenator, but to the rear there are two metal tubes (one for coolant and one more) blocking access to the allen bolt. They're not that easily removed. How do you handle this? Perhaps the Jeeps have more space in the engine compartment. I have removed the wiper assembly but would need some advice here!

Looking into the front cam locking hole, I cannot see any notch in the cam when the crancshaft is in the 90 degree position. I assume this is a sign that the alignment is not OK.

Also, where is the flywheel access bolt? I read about removing the fan, and soon I feel like I've removed half the car just to access those silly little holes!

Any help appreciated!

Best wishes for the new year!

/Fredrik


Update: There has been some slip. I'm off 100 degrees if I compare the crank 3 o'clock position with the cam locking groves. When the cams are aligned, the crank is at 7 o'clock, so if the crank turns clockwise, I'm even off some 260 degrees. Still can't find the flexplate/flywheel locking hole...



Since everybody else has a list of their vehicles, I might as well have one too:

Volvo Amazon B18 1961 (to be refurbished any decade now)
Chrysler Voyager 2.4SE 1999
Chrysler Voyager 2.5 CRD 2003
Honda CB900F 1983

VMdiesel take a look at this, https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/196 ... f-716k.pdf

Also, I doubt you are going to get away with a simple belt change, you probably trashed some rockers, and maybe even worse.

_________________
2006 LTD Bright Silver loaded with all the needed mods, CCV intact.
Proudly supporting CRD vendors, and their development of quality parts and accessories.
Equipped with HDS thermostat, plenty of heat, faster warm-ups, increased fuel mileage.

Hi!

Thanks, flman! I see there are some minor differences between the Jeep and the Voyager engine layout. The Voyager has no Viscous heater and the power seering pump is mounted on the other side of the crankshaft pulley, just below the AC compressor. Perhaps this is more due to my 2.5 CRD as opposed to your 2.8.

I was hoping that there was no slip but apparently there is. Hope is the last thing to leave man, so I'm still hoping the valves are OK and with a massive load of luck even the rockers. Would it be possible to assess the rocker condition by just turning the cam sprockets while the crankshaft is in the 90 degree position? Shouldn't there be some resistance when the rockers are actuated by the cam and the valves are pushed down? If one (or more) rockers are busted, there should be no resistance when the cam rotates past that position.

/Fredrik