Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F.

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:21 pm

CATCRD wrote:

Well, you're welcome to do what you want with your jeep. All I can do is post my experience with it. Done it, worked, I'd do it again.

I posted my experience. I have rebuilt and re-ringed many small diesel engines after people have used starting fluid and other liquids in the intake. I have a piston and connecting rod hanging on the wall of my garage which is clearly been from starting fluid. Again, not a good idea. If you want to do it to your jeep, that's fine… Nobody will stop you. But I don't want to see other folks take the same advice without the proper warning. Bad things can very easily happen. More often than not, they do. On some engines, it can crack the piston rings and the damage may not immediately be evident until it's too late. By that point, cylinder walls are scored, and Pistons are ruined. It ends up costing a lot more money later on. Sometimes the damage is immediate. Is it worth the risk?

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:33 pm

Here is a picture of a piston and a rod from a Volvo D24, which is a VW/Audi diesel engine. It's the same as a rabbit or Jetta 1.6 diesel, except it has two extra cylinders. On this engine, the guy argued with me and squirted only A tiny bit of ether, a quick squirt, in the air filter housing. He did it pre-filter, so it had to travel through the filter. I was there to witness this. The engine started right up, but not after making a horrific noise. It immediately had a terrible vibration and a lot of smoke. I pulled the engine and opened it up, found that the cylinder wall was severely scored, the rod was bent, the top compression ring was cracked, and the cylinder wall had a chunk out of the bottom from the piston skirt hitting it I assume. Again, I'm posting this as a warning. Use this information at your own risk.

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:07 am

Had you heard it run before that point?

I'm not arguing with your results Mike, but something is decidedly fishy about the cause you are drawing. I've sprayed WAY MORE ether than a "quick spray" directly into the throat of carbureted gas engines. I'm talking things like lawn mowers and trimmers. The compression might be a lot lower, but once the spark fires, they should be just as explosive if the ether is as bad as all that. No damage to any of them.

The top of the cylinders on the CRD are bowl shaped and hold quite a large volume of air. I'm taking a reasonable guess here, but I'd say that the total sprayed volume of ether that CatCRD is describing would be less than .1ml - Even not evaporated, I started CRDs with more wet volume than that after opening the head and having the coolant drain across the pistons. I went after it with a vacuum, but I know I didn't get every drop.

That kind of catastrophic damage makes me think of a solidly flooded cylinder or something else going on. Last data point: I also used ether on my TDI (the first one I had before the Jeep) when I was having starting problems that turned out to be an internal seal in the injection pump. I started it with a quick puff of ether INTO THE THROAT, probably about 4-5 times. Just before removing the pump, I did a compression test: 490/495/485/490. At the top end of the "new engine" scale of VW... AFTER 150k hard miles.

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:19 am

Did I hear it run prior? Yes. The day before. It was someone I knew. I worked on the car. It ran fine previously, except for a starting issue, which was later found to be bad glow plugs in several cylinders. The cylinder in which the damage occurred was a good plug. I have seen this damage more than once. Like I said, the risk is not worth it... I think we can agree on that. I sure as hell won't be putting ether into an otherwise fragile, and expensive engine... All I can say is I would think you guys are getting lucky by spraying ether in a diesel with glow plugs, regardless of the piston design. I have seen some people get away with it, and others not so lucky. The ones that were not so lucky, I rebuilt the engines.

flman · **Posted:** Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:32 am

Is there any way to switch the connection to a resistor so that you can leave it running and switch it back to temperature sensor? That multiple starts with the temperature sensor switched off, and 30 seconds does not sound like such a great process.

dirtmover · **Posted:** Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:39 am

LMWatBullRun wrote:

If my cord shows its age, then I will replace it with a better cord, not whine about it to the Feds.

it is not reasonable to expect wiring to last forever. Admittedly, one would expect such wiring to last longer than 8 years, but it's out of warranty. Contractually, Jeep has no obligation for this, which means that it is ours.

Block heater cords are a common cause of vehicle fires. They will start in the garage overnight and spread to the house while the occupants are asleep. If they're lucky they will escape. We see this scenario play out all too often in regions where block heaters are used routinely.

You might be capable of spotting the hazard and taking action yourself and you may not care if others lose their vehicles/homes or worse. The reality is that a huge percentage of the population don't inspect their block heater cables on a regular basis, probably wouldn't see it if there was an issue anyway or understand the risks. Further they wouldn't expect this sort of failure in what is a relatively recent vehicle.

This is where the lawyers, the Feds and mandatory recalls come in but they can only act proactively if failure incidents get reported. This is where product owners have a duty to play their part.

Of course, you just make sure you look after #1 :roll:

Yeti · **Posted:** Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:56 pm

flman wrote:

Is there any way to switch the connection to a resistor so that you can leave it running and switch it back to temperature sensor? That multiple starts with the temperature sensor switched off, and 30 seconds does not sound like such a great process.

I don't think you can put a resistor , more parameter are managed by the sensor

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:40 pm

dirtmover wrote:

LMWatBullRun wrote:

If my cord shows its age, then I will replace it with a better cord, not whine about it to the Feds.

it is not reasonable to expect wiring to last forever. Admittedly, one would expect such wiring to last longer than 8 years, but it's out of warranty. Contractually, Jeep has no obligation for this, which means that it is ours.

Block heater cords are a common cause of vehicle fires. They will start in the garage overnight and spread to the house while the occupants are asleep. If they're lucky they will escape.

This is unfortunate, but I am reminded of Heinlein's quote- "Stupidity cannot be cured. Stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death. There is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.” The idea that we can engineer anything to keep a moron from getting hurt is the sort of Progressive foolishness that plagues all productive enterprise. It's asinine idiocy to think that one could forestall all of the possible ways that idiots can hurt themselves, especially as vehicles age and wear out.

If you do proper inspection and maintenance, you have no problem. If you don't, you suffer the consequences. I had an acquaintance who bought a new car and drove it for 60,000+ miles, at which point the engine failed. It turned out that he had NEVER changed the oil. :roll:

He got no sympathy from me or most of his other acquaintances.

dirtmover wrote:

We see this scenario play out all too often in regions where block heaters are used routinely.

"We?" We who, exactly? And where is your source for your assertion? How many such incidents occur yearly in Canada and these presently united States? Out of how many block heater equipped vehicles? Facts, please, not hyperbole.

dirtmover wrote:

You might be capable of spotting the hazard and taking action yourself

Yes, because I understand that house current needs to be properly insulated from its surroundings.
This is pretty basic stuff. I learned it at a young age. Maybe 6 or 7?

dirtmover wrote:

and you may not care if others lose their vehicles/homes or worse.

On what basis do you promote such an outrageous libel? I deeply resent the imputation, and demand an immediate retraction and an apology. You have NO basis for such a comment.

dirtmover wrote:

The reality is that a huge percentage of the population don't inspect their block heater cables on a regular basis, probably wouldn't see it if there was an issue anyway or understand the risks.

Then they had better pay somebody who does know the risks to check it for them, or suffer the consequences! It is not my responsibility or anyone else's to play nanny to an overgrown baby. If you are an adult, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR ACTIONS. Rand said it very well- "One can ignore reality, but one cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality."

dirtmover wrote:

Further they wouldn't expect this sort of failure in what is a relatively recent vehicle.

Only an idiot would not comprehend the risks of cracked insulation on 120 volt wiring, especially if it is exposed to sun and rain. And recent? Some of the NA CRDs are almost 10 years old; the last of the 2006s will be 8 this summer. Anything over 10 years is classed as an end of life vehicle, and lots of places won't finance them! Recent, indeed!

dirtmover wrote:

This is where the lawyers, the Feds and mandatory recalls come in but they can only act proactively if failure incidents get reported. This is where product owners have a duty to play their part.

Duty? What duty? Where do you come up with this moral inversion? By what right do you assert such a thing? What standards are those that you think establish such an obligation on me? What code are YOU using, to make such a claim?

What you are saying is that if somebody is too stupid to inspect their vehicle, and replace a wire with cracked insulation on it that this somehow makes me responsible to deal with the situation? Ridiculous! :ROTFL:

dirtmover wrote:

Of course, you just make sure you look after #1 :roll:

Of course I look out for myself, and my family and my friends. That IS my duty, and *I* do it! If others did the same, and paid more attention to taking care of themselves and worried less about trying to mind other people's business, the world would be a much better place. :goink:

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:49 pm

MRausch82 wrote:

racertracer wrote:

Update:

I tried the multiple key cycle on technique and it made a world or difference.

Turning the Key on and off very quickly 5 to 6 times before fully engaging the starter, makes the jeep start smoother.

Incredible.

It's an easy trick.

ON/OFF, ON/OFF, ON/OFF, ON/OFF, ON/OFF, ON/OFF, all within a time span of 5 seconds.

Just came in from trying this. My jeep was not plugged in all night, single-digit lows… And this trick did absolutely nothing for me. Started just as hard as it has been. I finally got it started, let it run for a minute, then shut it down. I plugged in the block heater so if I have to go anywhere later, it will reliably start. What a pain in the neck.

Mike, I'm sympathetic, but our CRD has easily started in 0 degrees here in the mountains using the multiple on/off trick. When we get the Etechno's hot it starts right up.
Could you be the victim of low compression? possibly from rockers or soot blockage? I went out to a construction site and started a tractor that had been soaking in the cold and not run for two months. No charging and no glow plugs. Started on the fourth revolution, but I know this engine had great compression...

the solution is to have somebody, maybe Keith, reprogram the controller. How about it, Keith?

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:33 am

[quote="LMWatBullRun"Mike, I'm sympathetic, but our CRD has easily started in 0 degrees here in the mountains using the multiple on/off trick. When we get the Etechno's hot it starts right up.
Could you be the victim of low compression? possibly from rockers or soot blockage? I went out to a construction site and started a tractor that had been soaking in the cold and not run for two months. No charging and no glow plugs. Started on the fourth revolution, but I know this engine had great compression...

the solution is to have somebody, maybe Keith, reprogram the controller. How about it, Keith?[/quote]
I don't think so. This never happened prior to the glow plug replacement, as others are also reporting. As for compression, I do not think that is an issue either. I have run the ORM from an early time, and my oil stays clean indicating that it is doing what it should, that is, not operating the EGR. I change the oil religiously every 4500 miles, air filter every 3rd oil change (sometimes as early as 10K). My point is that it is not a compression issue. There would be other indicators if the compression was that low that it was hard to start. It would smoke more upon cold starting at warmer temperatures, it would idle poorly, may consume oil, poor MPG, low power, hard to start in warmer weather, etc. I do not have any of those symptoms. I have also spoken with several customers and folks that I know with CRD's, and they, too, have had the same issues immediately following replacing the glow plugs with the updated ones. I think the computer programming leaves something to be desired. It needs longer glow time. Someone else reported that the GP's were not getting "as red hot" as say an IDI VW or a VW TDI. That concerns me, and indicates that there is certainly something amiss with the programming. I concur, perhaps someone, GDE or the like, can come up with a solution. I'd be interested. That said, I may not have this issue next year. I don't plan on living up here in the mountains of PA. Hopefully the record cold winter of 2014 will be a distant memory, and we won't have a bitter cold winter 2015... :wink:

So far plugging it in... well, remembering to plug it in, has been working. I have not been driving near as much due to lack of work, and other issues... so I am not too concerned about it at the moment. It is just one of those minor annoyances that would be nice if it functioned properly type of things...

flman · **Posted:** Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:39 am

Yeti wrote:

flman wrote:

Is there any way to switch the connection to a resistor so that you can leave it running and switch it back to temperature sensor? That multiple starts with the temperature sensor switched off, and 30 seconds does not sound like such a great process.

I don't think you can put a resistor , more parameter are managed by the sensor

I will not doubt you as you are into the programming end, but the sensor is nothing more then a thermistor? You can not put it in the circuit to fool the ECU into reading -20 or something like that? If you say no I am okay with that.

Yeti · **Posted:** Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:56 am

Unfortunately, the signal being variable, it is a problem, regulates the advance of the motor according to the temperature reading, and do not know if you can do a similar job.
for what I thought a switch, but still, wait until the ECU turns off, about 30 seconds and after engage the switch for prevent electric shock on ECU

CATCRD · **Posted:** Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:06 pm

MRausch82 wrote:

CATCRD wrote:

Well, you're welcome to do what you want with your jeep. All I can do is post my experience with it. Done it, worked, I'd do it again.

I posted my experience. I have rebuilt and re-ringed many small diesel engines after people have used starting fluid and other liquids in the intake. I have a piston and connecting rod hanging on the wall of my garage which is clearly been from starting fluid. Again, not a good idea. If you want to do it to your jeep, that's fine… Nobody will stop you. But I don't want to see other folks take the same advice without the proper warning. Bad things can very easily happen. More often than not, they do. On some engines, it can crack the piston rings and the damage may not immediately be evident until it's too late. By that point, cylinder walls are scored, and Pistons are ruined. It ends up costing a lot more money later on. Sometimes the damage is immediate. Is it worth the risk?

Thank you for the PSA, but I put that warning in my post already. Did you read it? It's also on the can of ether itself. Used sparingly it has worked for me. I'm not the only one who has used it in the CRD either. No reports of problems, even by people probably using way more than me. YMMV, etc, etc.

I think you are picturing actual liquid entering the intake. No such thing is happening. A tiny amount is sprayed in the bottom of the airbox, and by the time I get around to the cab, key on, wait for the glow plugs and crank, there is only a small amount of vapor being inhaled to enhance compression ignition. At -10F I'm really not worried about preignition. I wouldn't consider using it at temperatures or quantities above that. Nor would I need to.

MRausch82 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:09 pm

CATCRD wrote:

MRausch82 wrote:

CATCRD wrote:

Well, you're welcome to do what you want with your jeep. All I can do is post my experience with it. Done it, worked, I'd do it again.

I posted my experience. I have rebuilt and re-ringed many small diesel engines after people have used starting fluid and other liquids in the intake. I have a piston and connecting rod hanging on the wall of my garage which is clearly been from starting fluid. Again, not a good idea. If you want to do it to your jeep, that's fine… Nobody will stop you. But I don't want to see other folks take the same advice without the proper warning. Bad things can very easily happen. More often than not, they do. On some engines, it can crack the piston rings and the damage may not immediately be evident until it's too late. By that point, cylinder walls are scored, and Pistons are ruined. It ends up costing a lot more money later on. Sometimes the damage is immediate. Is it worth the risk?

Thank you for the PSA, but I put that warning in my post already. Did you read it? It's also on the can of ether itself. Used sparingly it has worked for me. I'm not the only one who has used it in the CRD either. No reports of problems, even by people probably using way more than me. YMMV, etc, etc.

I think you are picturing actual liquid entering the intake. No such thing is happening. A tiny amount is sprayed in the bottom of the airbox, and by the time I get around to the cab, key on, wait for the glow plugs and crank, there is only a small amount of vapor being inhaled to enhance compression ignition. At -10F I'm really not worried about preignition. I wouldn't consider using it at temperatures or quantities above that. Nor would I need to.

kjjet · **Posted:** Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:28 pm

I hear you Mike. I can't even read this. :dizzy:

Jesse-E-Martin · **Joined:** Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:47 am **Posts:** 2

Having problems starting my 2006 Liberty (297 000 km) below 0 degrees Celsius. It was having some problems starting in the cold last winter (2017), just one code for the EGR valve not being connected. Ended up parking it until spring. In the spring I disassembled the engine down to the pistons as I figured the rockers and head gasket were probably due for replacement (they were). Pistons looked in pristine shape, injectors looked clean with no leaks. I tested the glow plugs individually and only one failed. Replaced all with 7 volt Etechnos and a new controller. Cleaned the EGR and re-wired the harness as it was damaged (hence the code). Did the timing belt and pulleys while I was in there as well as the camshaft and crankshaft sensors. I did not change the coolant temperature sensor however (the ECM was reporting the appropriate temperatures).

Put it all back together and it started great, however freezing temps were over until this coming winter. Now it has the same trouble starting in cold as last year. Tested the glow plugs again (pulled out and connected to harness). They get hot enough to burn electrical tape and seem to follow the run times from the FSM, but they certainly are not red hot.

Down to -10 degrees Celsius I can get it running by letting the glow plugs heat up for 15 seconds, cranking one full revolution, letting them heat an additional 15 seconds and then she fires right up normally (for -10). Below -10, it must be plugged in or started with ether (I carry two cans at all times).

Not sure what else to do.

Note on ether: I have been using ether to start all kinds of diesels for 20+ years with zero problems. On newer fancier engines, especially if it is not mine, I will disconnect the glowplugs/heater grid.

When you have been skiing in the backcountry of the Canadian Rockies for a week in -30 to -40 degrees Celsius, ether is your way home.

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

Jesse-E-Martin wrote:

Having problems starting my 2006 Liberty (297 000 km) below 0 degrees Celsius. It was having some problems starting in the cold last winter (2017), just one code for the EGR valve not being connected. Ended up parking it until spring. In the spring I disassembled the engine down to the pistons as I figured the rockers and head gasket were probably due for replacement (they were). Pistons looked in pristine shape, injectors looked clean with no leaks. I tested the glow plugs individually and only one failed. Replaced all with 7 volt Etechnos and a new controller. Cleaned the EGR and re-wired the harness as it was damaged (hence the code). Did the timing belt and pulleys while I was in there as well as the camshaft and crankshaft sensors. I did not change the coolant temperature sensor however (the ECM was reporting the appropriate temperatures).

Put it all back together and it started great, however freezing temps were over until this coming winter. Now it has the same trouble starting in cold as last year. Tested the glow plugs again (pulled out and connected to harness). They get hot enough to burn electrical tape and seem to follow the run times from the FSM, but they certainly are not red hot.

Down to -10 degrees Celsius I can get it running by letting the glow plugs heat up for 15 seconds, cranking one full revolution, letting them heat an additional 15 seconds and then she fires right up normally (for -10). Below -10, it must be plugged in or started with ether (I carry two cans at all times).

Not sure what else to do.

Note on ether: I have been using ether to start all kinds of diesels for 20+ years with zero problems. On newer fancier engines, especially if it is not mine, I will disconnect the glowplugs/heater grid.

When you have been skiing in the backcountry of the Canadian Rockies for a week in -30 to -40 degrees Celsius, ether is your way home.

Jesse-E-Martin:

E-mailed you via LOSTJEEPS.com... check your junk mail folder.

I sent a private message as well.

Best regards,

Jeff Bauer

Jesse-E-Martin · **Joined:** Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:47 am **Posts:** 2

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

Jesse-E-Martin wrote:

Having problems starting my 2006 Liberty (297 000 km) below 0 degrees Celsius. It was having some problems starting in the cold last winter (2017), just one code for the EGR valve not being connected. Ended up parking it until spring. In the spring I disassembled the engine down to the pistons as I figured the rockers and head gasket were probably due for replacement (they were). Pistons looked in pristine shape, injectors looked clean with no leaks. I tested the glow plugs individually and only one failed. Replaced all with 7 volt Etechnos and a new controller. Cleaned the EGR and re-wired the harness as it was damaged (hence the code). Did the timing belt and pulleys while I was in there as well as the camshaft and crankshaft sensors. I did not change the coolant temperature sensor however (the ECM was reporting the appropriate temperatures).

Put it all back together and it started great, however freezing temps were over until this coming winter. Now it has the same trouble starting in cold as last year. Tested the glow plugs again (pulled out and connected to harness). They get hot enough to burn electrical tape and seem to follow the run times from the FSM, but they certainly are not red hot.

Down to -10 degrees Celsius I can get it running by letting the glow plugs heat up for 15 seconds, cranking one full revolution, letting them heat an additional 15 seconds and then she fires right up normally (for -10). Below -10, it must be plugged in or started with ether (I carry two cans at all times).

Not sure what else to do.

Note on ether: I have been using ether to start all kinds of diesels for 20+ years with zero problems. On newer fancier engines, especially if it is not mine, I will disconnect the glowplugs/heater grid.

When you have been skiing in the backcountry of the Canadian Rockies for a week in -30 to -40 degrees Celsius, ether is your way home.

Jesse-E-Martin:

E-mailed you via LOSTJEEPS.com... check your junk mail folder.

I sent a private message as well.

Best regards,

Jeff Bauer

Apologies for not replying years ago. I was in the middle of installing a Webasto heater to get through winter (which works great) and getting frustrated that no one seems to know what is causing the Jeeps not to start below freezing. The Webasto is just a band-aid solution. After pulling random length night shifts clearing snow in the Yukon, it kind of sucks to get back to a cold Jeep in -40 C° and having to wait 30+ minutes for the Webasto to get the engine warm enough to start (if shift ends before the timer turns on). Fuel rail pressure is fine, injectors are working, compression is fine — the glow plugs (regardless of type) just don't seem to get hot enough anymore. At this point just running the Jeep into the ground and replacing with a Ram 1500 Ecodiesel next autumn. Would like to figure this out seeing as the Ecodiesel is from the same manufacturer.

P.S. If anyone is interested in buying an old CRD in the Yukon/Alaska, it is all yours.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:37 pm

What is the voltage rating of your current glow plugs, 5v or 7v?
Do you know what programing you have in the ECM for the GP's, 5v or 7v?
Makes a difference in GP performance.
If you contact Marco Giacomelli (ECU Tuning performance), aka "Yeti" on this forum, he may be able to provide you with a reflash to improve heating cycles and performance for colder temperatures.

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

"Apologies for not replying years ago. I was in the middle of installing a Webasto heater to get through winter (which works great) and getting frustrated that no one seems to know what is causing the Jeeps not to start below freezing. The Webasto is just a band-aid solution. After pulling random length night shifts clearing snow in the Yukon, it kind of sucks to get back to a cold Jeep in -40 C° and having to wait 30+ minutes for the Webasto to get the engine warm enough to start (if shift ends before the timer turns on). Fuel rail pressure is fine, injectors are working, compression is fine — the glow plugs (regardless of type) just don't seem to get hot enough anymore. At this point just running the Jeep into the ground and replacing with a Ram 1500 Ecodiesel next autumn. Would like to figure this out seeing as the Ecodiesel is from the same manufacturer.

P.S. If anyone is interested in buying an old CRD in the Yukon/Alaska, it is all yours."

Jesse-E-Martin:

How many diesel vehicles have you owned?

You are aware that all diesel engines - by their very nature of being a high compression engine and burning a fuel that has very little volatility - have cold weather starting problems; yes?

Webasto heaters are not "a band-aid solution". They were developed precisely to combat diesel engine cold weather starting problems by pre-heating the engine before even starting it. You should not be using your Webasto heater simply to get it warm enough to start it... you should be running your Webasto heater to preheat your engine right to 170 degrees Fahrenheit before even cranking your engine.... it is far better for your engine and it uses less fuel overall.

Or are you one of these guys who puts a load on your engine before allowing it to warm up? Driving your CRD just a few seconds after starting the engine?

Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F.

Who is online