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Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F.
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=78102		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  racertracer [ Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F.
My Jeep is having problems starting in this cold New England weather of -10F USA.

13.3v on battery, the engine turns fine but doesn't fire.

6 months old OEM metal Glow plugs with the Glow plug control module 56044671AC.

Fuel supply is fine and no air in the lines.

It has been starting great when it's plugged in and the temps are above the teens.

Last night I failed to plug it in and this morning it just didn't start, the starter was turning with lots of energy.

I am thinking that my glow plug controller needs to be replaced to latest revision of 68090431aa, this is what Chrysler is saying the issue to be.

I know many are saying that it doesn't matter what controller is installed and that the ECU controls it....... but right now nothing is working.

Mr. Mopar stated that there is s difference in the controller even though the Bosch part numbers are the same.

The condition is that when the weather is below the freezing mark and the engine heater has not been plugged in, the CRD doesn't start.

Is anyone experiencing these same conditions with the OEM metal GP and the 68090431aa GP controller?
Author:  Spiegelmann [ Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F
Same problems no fault codes - 20C hard start from one cylinder, then after 5 sec revs ignite others. New glow plugs kj 2007.
Author:  MRausch82 [ Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F
...same with mine. New OE glow plugs and controller (56055671AC) as well as the ECU flash. Hard to start below about 15 degrees... the lower the temp, the harder it is. If plugged in, it starts fine dead cold...
Author:  VMKJCRD [ Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F
-12 degrees at 4:30AM today in my area and she started at the 4th crank unplugged. I have the etecno plugs in and I also use FPPF deluxe Total Power diesel treatment that has a Cetane improver for faster cold starts.
Author:  racertracer [ Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F
The glow plug programming of the ECU needs tweaking, Chrysler and Bosch need to do more homework on this.
Author:  MRausch82 [ Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F
racertracer wrote:
The glow plug programming of the ECU needs tweaking, Chrysler and Bosch need to do more homework on this.

I agree 100%.
Author:  Jr_Explorer [ Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F
We bought our 2006 on Black Friday (day after Thanksgiving) in WI. My g.f. drove to ND to visit family then drove out to CA the week after Thanksgiving when all that record cold was rolling through. Started it right up in -25F in Sheridan WY the next morning without being plugged in. The fuel was winter blend (50/50?) and they had Power Service Diesel 911 in the tank. I was impressed.

As far as I know this KJ has original glow plugs and controller (this vehicle was always serviced at the same dealership where it was bought and where we bought it and we got a copy of the service records).
Author:  Whiskey [ Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F
My 06 has been having the same issues. Starts getting cranky at -10F, and from then on down I'll go start it every 2-3 hours if I'm at work and can't plug in. I've also found that blocking the radiator off so the wind can't get to it and throwing a blanket over the engine (my preferred type is Hannah Montana) to keep the heat in helps. Something my dad suggested I try is crank it over and if fires but doesn't start running just let it sit for a little bit (45 sec to a 1 min I've found for mine) and the heat from the compression or the detonation (I'm not sure which) will warm up the cylinders and make it a little more responsive to the idea of starting. It might sound odd, but I was able to fire up without any issues at -20 to -30 plus wind chill with no block heater when I a guy I work with had to take a generator out to the parking lot to plug his gasser Ram's block heater in to get it warm enough to start. I know this doesn't add to the glow plug discussion, but perhaps it will help get you all by until you can get the issue resolved. If you do figure out the problem please let me know so I can hopefully get mine better suited for the cold. Here is something I read from another member that may be of use as well:

Post subject: Re: 2006 liberty crd hard starting cold, no codes.

Brianawd

check the flow control actuator on the cp3 pump. I have been having a issue with surging and longer cranking times when the jeep is cold. Once the jeep is warm the issue goes away. I found the info on some of the cummins forums. This past weekend I left the jeep unplugged and and used a heat gun pointed at the FCA on the cp3 pump. I warmed the FCA for about 5min. The jeep started like it would when it was plugged in and when driving it down the road all my surging issue were gone.
Author:  ics crd [ Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F
Mine is a pain in the butt to start too. Jim just changed my timing belt and glow plugs at 100K. It was a big mistake to change the original ceramic glow plugs with the steel 7V Etectno. The CEL came on just 3000 miles after replacement and it is an aggravation that I do not need, plus the money that I have to spend to fix it again.
Any thoughts on what I should do next are really appreciated. Should I stick with the 7V Etecno? Should I go back to ceramics?
Jim are you anywhere around New Jersey? Maybe you can take a look? I can drive to you if you are close enough.

Thank you!
Author:  MRausch82 [ Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F
I wonder if someone like GDE could come up with a "glow plug update" for better starting in extremely cold weather. Chrysler did that when these were still new IIRC. Maybe the update needs to be for the "steel" 7v and the new 5v plugs. Seems everyone who has the steels, either the drop in's or the Bosch replacements, is experiencing some issues starting below 10 degrees.

EDIT: I just had some issues starting mine at 20 degrees Fahrenheit. I have NEVER had an issue prior to updating the glow plugs. It sat for two days, and was not plugged in. I am running Power Service white bottle in every tank of fuel.
Author:  jeepdan [ Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F
My daughter's CRD with the 5 volt Mopar steel glow plugs and GDE Tune failed to start today, after setting 5 hours in 15 deg temps.
It started after it was pulled into a heated garage at a Walmart for awhile. Not sure what really happened, I wasn't there.
I had the fuel spiked with the white bottle Power Service.
Anyhow, we are swapping CRDs tonight.
I want to get a first hand experience with these new glow plugs.
It will be setting at work tomorrow with temps around zero, with no way to plug in the block heater.
Hope I don't get stranded.
But, better me than her.
Author:  weeks101 [ Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F
5V OEM steel plugs here. Jeep sat for 15 hours and bottomed out overnight at -20F. At 8 am it was -15F. It took multiple cycles of the glow plugs and some cranking, but the CRD did start. First one cylinder, then the rest joined the party.
Author:  bugnout [ Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F
I just put in the Etecno 7v's in this fall and find the CRD definitely starting harder now. If a glow plug update was made to the GDE Tune, I'd certainly spring for the update.

I used to turn the key, wait for the dash lights to cycle off then crank. Worked reliably down to zero F. Now I cycle the key a couple of times when its below 15, and can get only a couple of cylinders kicking. Lots of smoke and bucking for a couple of seconds.
Author:  weeks101 [ Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F
bugnout wrote:
I just put in the Etecno 7v's in this fall and find the CRD definitely starting harder now. If a glow plug update was made to the GDE Tune, I'd certainly spring for the update.


I would too. Let's get Keith in here.
Author:  geordi [ Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F
FWIW, I don't believe it would be a good idea to go back to the ceramic plugs. I also don't think it is possible - they aren't being made anymore. The biggest risk with those is that when they fail, there isn't any warning and they can mushroom and drop pieces of super-hard carbon ceramic all over the top of the piston. This will chew at the walls of the cylinder or jam in the valves and cause any number of expensive problems.

The metal ones are a metal jacket around the ceramic, so that should (in theory) prevent the plug from shattering into the cylinder when they fail.
No, it doesn't help against the suckage of replacing them on the CRD.

Where I think the solution lies, is in programming a longer duration in colder weather. The other problem is in how the plug voltages are "modulated" by the computer to get the 5v or 7v - Rapidly switching the power on and off, so that the plug doesn't have a chance to overheat with too hot a voltage. To me, this is a poor design from the beginning. Set the plug voltage to match (or be capable of handling) full battery voltage, and then turn the plugs off when the starter is activated. Lower voltages = lower heat. Maybe there is a way to increase the GP time with whichever system you currently have.

The other thing to consider is what Whiskey posted - maybe the problem isn't in the cylinders, but is actually in the CP3 pump? It doesn't matter how hot you can get the cylinders, if there isn't any fuel injected, then it will never fire.

Me, I have a bottle of Diesel911 in my storage bin of my TDI, and I'm putting in a double-dose of white bottle PS with every fill up if there is white crap on the ground. Then again, my TDI hasn't moved since before Christmas because of a bad wheel bearing causing a hole to be punched in the transmission case. (more on that later) It must not have been too bad a problem - I drove 5000 miles with that hole before I knew it was there!
Author:  jeepdan [ Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F
jeepdan wrote:
It started after it was pulled into a heated garage at a Walmart for awhile. Not sure what really happened, I wasn't there.

Kind of a corrective update, they said that "it tried to start a couple times, but each time it shook violently, got scared and shut it back off.
So a couple of cylinders were firing, it might have smoothed out.
I will see how it starts tomorrow.
Author:  geordi [ Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F
To me, that says either poor combustion because of cold cylinders (certainly a possibility) or poor combustion because of poor fuel flow from the CP3 pump.

If the pump is cold-soaked from sitting outdoors and the fuel inside it is sluggish (if not gelled, then maybe just cloudy?) then the metering may not be able to flow enough to get fuel into the cylinders properly. At the same time, the fuel heater in the filter is working, and fuel passing that will be warmed up before it heads to the pump.

Perhaps that warming of the fuel is enough to un-stuck the pump, which is why it then fires?

I think we are getting closer here.
Author:  flman [ Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F
The steel glow plugs suck, I am glad the wifes jeep with the steel ones is in an unheated garage. I started on day outdoors and it acting like it was firing on one cylinder, it was always great with the ceramics. They might just go back in?
Author:  jeepdan [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F
Update report from today.
CRD #2 fired right up instantly this morning at -13 degrees with the block heater plugged in all night.
On the way to work, I stopped and added another 8 ounces of white bottle Power Service to the tank, and topped off with 11 gallons of diesel.
After setting at work for eight hours, it started up fine at 5 degrees outside (just as well as CRD #1 with it's original ceramic glow plugs)
So I don't know what happened yesterday.
I have one question though, If a person tries to start the engine too quickly without giving the glow plugs their warm up delay.
Do you need to wait for a short period of time before the ECM will give the glow plugs another full burst of voltage?
Author:  weeks101 [ Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Problems starting CRD in cold weather below 10 degrees F
I have no issues above 0 so it's not surprising it went fine. For me it's below zero and it just sucks.
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