Hard stats and Injector seals leaking!

TBurkholder · **Posted:** Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:39 pm

Hi Guys, Ive been having a pile of trouble with my little tractor lately. Problems started in June when #3 cylinder decided it didn't want to hold onto its valve anymore and dropped it causing as you you expect total write off of that engine. I was able to locate a low mile replacement engine that I took apart and did a ton of preventive maintenance to it before install. New head gasket, timing belt, water pump, rockers, all injectors were sent out for flow check, new 5V glow plugs and re programming, As well as Eco Tune and a whole lot more that I'm trying to forget and my bank account is trying to rebuild from. Since then the jeep has been running amazing but I'm getting the common hard start issues that everyone seems to, as well as I had with my old engine. When the weather starts to get cold here and block heaters plugged in if its below -15C +/- the jeep is almost impossible to start, multiple attempts with long cranks in the 20-25 seconds of crank time. If jeeps parked in my heated garage after about 8-10 hours of sitting I'm still getting 15-20 seconds on the starter before it actually starts. Ive recently installed a inline lift pump back by the fuel tank hoping this would help but so far my starts seem to be about the same. Any help would be amazing I'm at the end of my rope with the jeep and my head is killing me from constant banning against the wall. Also on side note twice now after cold starts and getting the jeep running I've had a injector o-ring blow out causing air leak and fuel mist, I replaced all 4 tip gaskets and o-rings when I put the new engine in. But since then I've changed #4 once and #3 once, and on way home yesterday from work after a hard cold start I heard the typical air popping sound being 5Km from home I carried on got it in the garage and sure enough #1 was now leaking as well. I have a set of 5 on order now and will replace #1 when they get here, and all 4 when/if it happens again to eliminate issues. Any ideas where I should go next on what might be causing this or any of my other starting issues? Other than move to a warm climate when cold starts are not a issue.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:20 pm

Leaky injector seals won't help starting in any weather. I'm concerned about repeated replacement and wonder?? The injectors primary seal is the copper crush washer as the rubber "O" ring is more a dust/crud seal than anything else. The injectors should seat and seal solidly on the crush washer if the crow's foot is installed and torqued down correctly. The exception that I know of is the crow's foot is supposed to rest on a steel plate about the size of a US $0.10 coin (see PN 5093922AA and item #3 in Figure 14-420 of the 05 parts fiche). If that plate is not there then the crow's foot rests on aluminum and won't torque or hold torque properly. Worth checking.

-15C = 5F which is cold but should not be an issue with the block heater working. Have you checked? With the block heater plugged in for say 3 hrs or overnight open the hood and feel down the side of the block. It should be at least warm. You can also check, at least I think you can, by putting a continuity tester on both flat prongs of the plug in wire. If no continuity either the wire, heater element or both are dead. idParts has the heater element (PN 56044738AA) for $66.25 US and might have the cord. If not the cord is not uncommon; NAPA KAT 28400 or equivalent.

TBurkholder · **Posted:** Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:52 pm

Block heater is working, engine is warm to the touch and I have metered out the cord and element. I will look into the part you have mentioned, I know both my engines have nothing under the crows foot. My engine just has the little pad on the head that is moulded in for the tab of the crows foot to sit on definitely worth looking into thanks. However with that aside and everything working properly I still have my starting issue. :banghead:

flman · **Posted:** Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:53 pm

I see you went with the steel glow plugs? :roll:

Also on the block heater, you should hear a good sizzle and maybe a spark when you unplug it as long as it is drawing amps? You could also split the flat cord and put a clamp on amp meter to see if is drawing about 3+ amps.

And injector leaks = lower compression.

TBurkholder · **Posted:** Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:00 pm

There is draw on the block heater can't say for sure how much as I have not measured it but like you said when I unplug I do get both a crackle and a little spark sometimes. Leaky injector will be fixed monday afternoon when parts arrive until then jeep is parked and resting in the warm garage. Even tho with a tight system and no leaks anywhere its still a pain to start, and unfortunately yes I went with steel 5V plugs, Anyone have a set of ceramic 7V they seem to be gold, I believe they would help me out but impossible to find.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:06 pm

The steel plate I mentioned sits in a recess cast in the aluminum under the crow's foot. Take a look when you have that leaky injector out. If there is a circular recess or divot under the crow's foot the plate is missing, they can fall out, but if it's flat and you see the circular steel plate then it's there.

TBurkholder · **Posted:** Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:11 pm

ok I'm pretty sure they are there, But I'll double check on monday when I'm doing the tip gasket and O-rings.

TBurkholder · **Posted:** Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:12 am

I have pulled my front injector and it was very hard to get out, I have only had the injectors in for about 2000KMS since the rebuild and re-install of the replacement engine. When I pulled the injector the whole housing was very full of carbon and a tough black layer. The o ring was in about 4 pieces and the tip gasket stayed down at the bottom of the hole. The steel pad was installed in the head under the crows foot and the bolt still had torque on it, safe to say it was not loose from the install causing blow by. Any help, suggestion, or ideas please. This jeep was my daily driver and I'm running on a success rate of about 15% on getting to work in the last week because of it. Ive been lucky enough to have a company truck for last few days to get me by till I can sort out the newest issue on the jeep.

thermorex · **Posted:** Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:02 pm

This could also be from a bad diesel in your jeep, do you fill up from the same gas station/pump? Another possibility could be improper fuel mix, I know this is ECU controlled, but who knows... I see you're running the eco tune, you should try reflashing the tune and see if that helps. Not very likely, but it can be, if once you fix the injector leaks it still starts hard, I'd look into the quality of fuel. You can try adding some cetane booster (liqui moli has a great one and you can get it from NAPA) and see if that helps. Also, doing a compression check when you replace the injectors wont hurt, you can buy/rent a kit and do it yourself, just to eliminate another potential issue. I recently got an 82 Mercedes with the 5 cyl diesel, the glow plugs in it were full of burned soot, I had to really pull them out with pliers, I was afraid I will rip the tip off, only 2 were working, after replacing all 5 with new, engine starts when I show it the key, lol. This indicates a partially burned fuel and also bad fuel, the guy that sold the car used vegetable oil and diesel mix in the summer, no special heaters and conversion. I also wonder if you got that soot buildup on the injector due to compression loss... Please keep us posted with the results of replacing the cooper sealing washers.

I also have the steel plugs and in that temperature, it starts, not as easy as with ceramics, but it starts, maybe in 3-5 seconds

TBurkholder · **Posted:** Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:45 am

Good suggestions thanks for the info. I have been slammed with work so the jeep will have to wait till next week now, I am going to pull all 4 injectors and clean everything up new tip gaskets, o rings and bolts for the crows-foot on all, I will also pull my glow plugs at this time make sure there not covered with a build up as well, might as well start fresh again. I will definitely keep you guys posted as you are my life line. Dealers are absolutely useless as they never see these jeep through there and all the other diesel shops are to busy and I'm not willing to pay there shop rate for them to learn and research just to get up to speed on the little jeeps. Plus I am in the maintenance trade might as well keep doing my own work even though I'm sick of looking at the jeep at least I know its getting done right. As for my fuel I always get it from the same place and pump, I also fuel my duramax there with no issues on it. As for a reflash I've been considering this after my engine replacement but other than my starting issue the jeep has been running great. I had this same starting issue with the jeep with the old engine, witch lead me to believe that the issue was in the jeep not the engine (2 engines same jeep exact same starting issue) :banghead:

Hexus · **Posted:** Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:26 pm

You MUST replace the copper crush washer EVERY TIME you remove the fuel injector, otherwise you're just going to keep replacing the gaskets.

:2cents:

pwrwagn · **Joined:** Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:40 am **Posts:** 192

Well, I'm a bit confused.

I have the steel glow plugs, and this morning, at 5F ( -15C ), it fired up with 5 seconds of cranking, without being plugged in. It sputtered and smoked and missed for about 15 seconds, but then smoothed out and ran fine.

I'm not sure why you'd have a no start condition just because it's this cold, unless you have a seriously non-functional glow plug system, or some other problem.

pwrwagn · **Joined:** Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:40 am **Posts:** 192

Hexus wrote:

You MUST replace the copper crush washer EVERY TIME you remove the fuel injector, otherwise you're just going to keep replacing the gaskets.

:2cents:

This is absolutely correct.

The thickness of the washer is very specific, and that thickness is required to locate the injector tip at the designed location in the combustion chamber.

You must use new copper washers with each pull, and they must be the right ones, AND the seat must be clean and smooth, as well. If any of those are not met, you can ruin the injector AND even the head - very quickly.

tomasnc · **Posted:** Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:45 pm

My injector seals have failed. Three of the four are leaking with one bubbling.

Is there an after market source for this seal? There are two diesel injection repair shops here in North-Carolina but I am guessing they will not have anything this small.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:41 pm

idParts online has them or any DCJ dealer can get them. Not particularly pricey either way.

TBurkholder · **Posted:** Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:22 pm

Anytime I pull an injector the o-ring and copper gasket are replaced as well as all the clean up is done before reinstall. I'm hoping this time is the last. I have been flying all around for work lately and haven't had a chance to look at the jeep but ill get to it this weekend. Hopefully its all sorted out after this, If not spring is on the way and ill have a whole summer of troubleshooting to sort out my starting issue before winter starts up again. As long as I can get these injectors sorted ill be happy for now. Thanks for the info.

racertracer · **Posted:** Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:00 pm

papaindigo wrote:

The steel plate I mentioned sits in a recess cast in the aluminum under the crow's foot. Take a look when you have that leaky injector out. If there is a circular recess or divot under the crow's foot the plate is missing, they can fall out, but if it's flat and you see the circular steel plate then it's there.

Hello Papa, Pardon me for reviving this old thread but it has some info I like to get more info on, what is the "steel plate" under the crows foot that you speak of?

Do you have a part number?

joe_ · **Posted:** Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:23 pm

5093922AA

Hard stats and Injector seals leaking!

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