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 Post subject: Columbus Ohio, anyone with knowledge nearby? --rockers/tb
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:42 pm 
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quick facts- 110k on engine, timing belt changed 98k. Driving 70mph down the road and miss miss-- hum what was that? and then an almost quite pop, like a single backfire from a carb, then tons of black smoke and no power and some knocking.
Towed to the house and took off the CAC they seem to be okish, ordered samco anyway, also ordered the egr elbow kit and GDE eco-tune while I was waiting.
Got the elbow kit on today. Cleared the codes and only P0301 came back, then felt the CAC on the driver side and it pulses with the engine noise.

Will a cylinder 1 misfire also happen if there is a valve or rocker issue? or just injector?

Are there any experts near Hilliard/UA that would take a listen and maybe could help?


Thanks.
Poltergiest

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Last edited by poltergiest on Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Columbus Ohio, anyone with knowledge nearby?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:41 pm 
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Maybe upload a video of it idling for us?


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 Post subject: Re: Columbus Ohio, anyone with knowledge nearby?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:56 am 
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poltergiest wrote:
quick facts- 110k on engine, timing belt changed 98k. Driving 70mph down the road and miss miss-- hum what was that? and then an almost quite pop, like a single backfire from a carb, then tons of black smoke and no power and some knocking.
Towed to the house and took off the CAC they seem to be okish, ordered samco anyway, also ordered the egr elbow kit and GDE eco-tune while I was waiting.
Got the elbow kit on today. Cleared the codes and only P0301 came back, then felt the CAC on the driver side and it pulses with the engine noise.

Will a cylinder 1 misfire also happen if there is a valve or rocker issue? or just injector?

Are there any experts near Hilliard/UA that would take a listen and maybe could help?


Thanks.
Poltergiest


Maybe you broke the rockers, the pulsing of the hose is the turbo pushing against closed valves? Does the hose swell during the pulse?

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 Post subject: Re: Columbus Ohio, anyone with knowledge nearby?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:59 am 
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really cant tell, I would say it swells. Its not much if any swelling, just the split second of knock and normal.

geordi- I will try to get a video before I leave for work.

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 Post subject: Re: Columbus Ohio, anyone with knowledge nearby?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:01 am 
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here is the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QzfzOyfnzA

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 Post subject: Re: Columbus Ohio, anyone with knowledge nearby?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:05 am 
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It certainly sounds like a valve not opening and points to some issues with the rocker arms.

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 Post subject: Re: Columbus Ohio, anyone with knowledge nearby?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:50 am 
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You dropped a valve or failed a rocker. Either way the head has to come off.

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 Post subject: Re: Columbus Ohio, anyone with knowledge nearby?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:22 pm 
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crud, why cant the answer ever be use Marvel Mystery Oil and that will fix'ya. :ROTFL:

ok so it is possible it "might" be warrantied by the garage that did the timing belt? Or just find someone with the know-how and just do it at home?

anyone willing to loan some tools and knowledge?

better start finding parts....

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 Post subject: Re: Columbus Ohio, anyone with knowledge nearby?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:19 pm 
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Idparts.com is the best and cheapest source for parts. I think 400 would get you a set of OEM rockers. Tools you can buy from eBay, the cam sprocket tool may be expensive but is the best, you may also work with a vw cam locking tool from idparts.com. Cam locking pins from eBay, sealey has a set for crd. But first, check the map readings with torque pro app for android and a blue tooth obd2 (ebay). Per gde, factory readings are 18.2g and below 15 more than likely you have rocker issues.

Knowledge is the fsm that sir Sam posted in noob guide, he also has a bunch of videos, and the tech forum has a rocker arm replacement walkthrough that I wrote a while ago, not the best walkthrough but good enough to give you an idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Columbus Ohio, anyone with knowledge nearby?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:01 pm 
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That is absolutely a top end problem. Mine sounded that way, and I had a broken lifter.

Do NOT drive it any more, for any reason.

Right now it's a cheap(er) fix, if you drive it the costs goes up up up.

Since you had a rocker and/or lifter fail, you're going to need to go ahead and replace all of them. This is probably due to EGR Soot and acidity of your oil due to EGR and poor (worthless) ECU programming.

Rockers/Lifters are $360 from ID Parts.

You're going to need some type of Camshaft holder, [I'm loathe to loan mine as it was $400] and you're going to need the Intake/Exhaust pin set. [I got my set of these for $120ish] Several have made their own pins out of bolts and other things, let your conscience be your guide with that. If you want the actual tools, they're out there. Everyone swears by the hex key in the flywheel, I like the Sealey set of tools as everything went right in the first try, I have used it 5 times and I let Dragand021 (I believe) used them as well. TennesseeCRD had them used on his as well.

Rocker and Lifter arm Set - http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=3065

You'll also need:

Valve Cover Gasket - http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=3152

Injector Washer & O-Ring kit - http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=3284 You need 4 of these, not 1 at $8.39, but 4 @ $33.56

About $440 + shipping for all the parts.

You won't need the intake gaskets if you've already removed the EGR assembly. The GDE tune will keep this from happening again, and it had nothing to do with the tune or the timing belt service, you would've known if that was crap the moment you got it.

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 Post subject: Re: Columbus Ohio, anyone with knowledge nearby?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:16 am 
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ouch! really trying to avoid buying any more tools that I am going to use once (hopefully). We will be moving out of the country in two/three years and selling most of the tools I've collected over the past.
I saw somewhere that had them for rent, need to find those.

What are the chances that my valves are ok?
should I go ahead and change the glow plugs while I am doing this?

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 Post subject: Re: Columbus Ohio, anyone with knowledge nearby?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:44 pm 
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Green Diesel Engineering (your tune) had them for rent, but I think they quit because people abused/broke them and/or lost them/stole them. You can check with them though. I know there's another cam holding tool people were using, and the Beesville Farm tool can be made pretty cheaply, just look around on the board.

The Glow Plugs are up to you, it would be easier to change them with the intake off already, to be sure. I would personally recommend the 7v Metal Drop-ins. IDParts sells those too. I believe they're about $25 each.

Your valves should be fine, mine had 0 issues. No guarantee but you'll have to open it up to see.

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 Post subject: Re: Columbus Ohio, anyone with knowledge nearby?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:50 pm 
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I will be posting a much more detailed thread later on, probably tonight after I can take some pictures to illustrate my points, BUT...

DO NOT WORRY about using the "factory" Miller Cam tool. Out of the last 13 CRDs that I had the chance to try it on, the tool would have properly engaged exactly ONE of them. If the gears are not properly aligned to the tool (which may make them NOT properly aligned for the pins!) then the tool will not properly lock the cams and MIGHT force the gears to rotate against the pins while you are tightening it into position. This is bad.

Use the "universal sprocket buster tool" from Metalnerd that IDparts sells for the VW timing kits (it is in the tools section) or just make your own - The key is to ONLY fight against your own arm strength, not anyone else's or any kind of vise-grip arrangement.

I will detail more later, but the factory tool no longer has my support because of what I have observed in the field.

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 Post subject: Re: Columbus Ohio, anyone with knowledge nearby?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:43 pm 
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Oh, I know what you're saying, while belt stretches or teeth get worn, the timing belt distance between belt teeth changes lightly, which modifies the position of sprockets relative to each other. The v tool is great, it can be manufactured by whoever needs to match it's length with the torque wrench, so it's easier to balance. The only issue is that 80some lbs/ft if I remember correctly, which is the torque for sprockets, can create some ballance issues in hand forces, which can make the cam shaft rotate a bit, which can create some tension in the lock pins and mess up the valve cover m10x1.0 thread where the locking pins go through. I had to use time sert to fix mine, I also suspect it may be the sealey pin messed up, since the other one is perfectly fine... Just a word of caution for whoever uses the v tool, you need to be very careful while torquing and untorquing the cam bolts and have an eye out for locking pin movement, which is an indicator the forces are not equal.

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 Post subject: Re: Columbus Ohio, anyone with knowledge nearby?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:20 pm 
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OK spent too much money at IDparts again. Got everything Hexus suggested in addition to the 7v ectos glow plugs. I have a set of loaner miller tools coming from Clay (thanks).

Its just way easier on me and my lack of time to just use the tools, I could build them, but lack of time is a huge factor. Spend two or three hours looking for parts, build it, crap did it wrong- do it again, or just rent - done. I only hopefully will need them once. If this goes to another 100K I will plan to be near someone to have it done.

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 Post subject: Re: Columbus Ohio, anyone with knowledge nearby?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:06 pm 
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thermorex wrote:
Oh, I know what you're saying, while belt stretches or teeth get worn, the timing belt distance between belt teeth changes lightly, which modifies the position of sprockets relative to each other. The v tool is great, it can be manufactured by whoever needs to match it's length with the torque wrench, so it's easier to balance. The only issue is that 80some lbs/ft if I remember correctly, which is the torque for sprockets, can create some ballance issues in hand forces, which can make the cam shaft rotate a bit, which can create some tension in the lock pins and mess up the valve cover m10x1.0 thread where the locking pins go through. I had to use time sert to fix mine, I also suspect it may be the sealey pin messed up, since the other one is perfectly fine... Just a word of caution for whoever uses the v tool, you need to be very careful while torquing and untorquing the cam bolts and have an eye out for locking pin movement, which is an indicator the forces are not equal.


I know what you mean about unbalanced forces from your hands, and my answer to that is to use a big 30" torque wrench from Home Depot for the wrench part. It is just about the same size as the universal sprocket buster, so then all you need to do is watch the pulley and ensure that you are not rotating IT while you push from opposite sides on the sprocket buster and the torque wrench. What makes it a LOT easier and safer? DON'T REMOVE THE BELT OR THE TENSION before unlocking the camshaft bolts, and lock them up AFTER setting the initial tension on replacement. The teeth and tension on the belt will help a LOT in keeping everything solid, because you have your arm force PLUS the belt tension, PLUS the piston inertia (friction) all adding to keep that pulley from rotating while your other hand is the only thing wanting it and the bolt to move.

Yes, it is tricky, but that is the only way I can find to allow the pins to perfectly center the camshafts, and to allow the pulleys to be fully independent and match with whatever the belt wants it to do. The tool just doesn't perfectly line up on anybody, and it didn't seem to matter if the belt was old or new. Based on where the pins were the happiest and the crank was centered (3/6/9/12) and the fuel pump within 1/2 tooth of my sharpie after setting it (because you can't see the timing mark with the bolts in place, I set it and mark the housing, but that sharpie isn't super-precise)... Then the camshaft pulleys MUST be allowed to "find their happy place" against the belt without affecting the camshaft pins.

If the tool will slot-in perfectly, then great! But in my experience... It doesn't work that way. Which means that if you DID use the tool to force the pulleys to rotate slightly to where they did mesh with the tool... Maybe that would make the belt NOT as snug against the pulleys, and when you removed the tool after setting the bolts... It then pulled the camshafts slightly in either direction - against the pins. The timing wouldn't be perfectly centered anymore. Still within spec, sure... But "spec" allows you to be a whole tooth out of perfect and the engine will still run. Not happy, but it will run. But as the belt stretches in... Maybe that 1 tooth out becomes 1.3 teeth out, and the rockers start suffering.

I like it set where the pins have ZERO tension on them when the belt is tight and everything is locked. No tools to remove them, and no forces pushing them out of perfectly aligned. Then I know the timing is as perfectly centered as it can be.


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 Post subject: Re: Columbus Ohio, anyone with knowledge nearby?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:27 pm 
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Very true, the caution was not for you Geordi, my cam pins came out by hand, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't careful enough when I last took out the belt to replace a squeaky pulley and I rotate slightly the cams with the pins in. Next the capping bolt that goes where the timing pin is supposed to be inserted, was leaking. So I have to do it the hard way, lol. Also, my self made v tool is exactly as long as the torque wrench, for the exact reason you mentioned. My fault entirely for the screw-up though...

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 Post subject: Re: Columbus Ohio, anyone with knowledge nearby?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:50 am 
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There's plenty of movement, even with the cam pins inserted, to line up the VM tool with no issue insofar as the cam sprocket teeth are concerned. I know what you're talking about, and your concern, but the VM.1085 locks on the pillars that stick out of the rear TB cover for some of the 10mm bolts as well as the teeth on the cams, it's not going anywhere or allowing anything to move even a little once it's locked on.

Use whatever tool you like, or whatever's cheapest that will work, I concur, but for my money I won't use anything but the VM.1085 especially since I own one, and have used it 6 times currently.

Nowhere near your level Geordi, but plenty enough to understand and be able to make comment.

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 Post subject: Re: Columbus Ohio, anyone with knowledge nearby?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:16 pm 
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My problem with it is the way it engages the teeth on the cams - If you need to adjust (rotate) the belt and the pulleys AFTER you have already fit the pins in... Which way is the correct way to rotate? You already set the pins in, so they were centered... Any way you rotate it now is moving away from centered.

Obviously the max distance you would need to rotate is only half-a-tooth in either direction, but it still is putting angles and force on the pins. Yes, there is some slop allowed in this design, but that shouldn't be an excuse. The pins and their precision are the ultimate arbiters of where the cam wants to be. The 'keyholes' in the cams should be perfectly aimed at each other. If they aren't, grab some vice grips and adjust that. Setting the timing is tricky because you are fighting balancing the cams on top of two lobes, and it doesn't want to sit there if the springs can make it move. That is why you need the pins.

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 Post subject: Re: Columbus Ohio, anyone with knowledge nearby?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:55 pm 
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Everything from IDParts came in today. Now just waiting on tools.

Do I really need tools to tear it down? Lets just say after talking to the shop that did the tb change I am almost certain they eyeballed it. I say that because I asked them how many timing belts they have done on any jeep diesel, the answer--"well we have done lots of Ford power strokes and GM duramax diesel timing belts". I don't know about those but are they belts or chains?


I think I may just try find someone local to do this, I am running very short on time. I need this before mothers day, and my schedule is so full it will take weeks I don't have to do this.

Anybody recommend anyone in Columbus/Hilliard area? I will even trade my 60 gallon compressor. (nope never hooked it up where I live now.moved and never did bother with working on cars)

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