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 Post subject: Re: My 250+HP CRD build
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:09 pm 
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Suncoast torque converter and a stage2 build. This is an upgraded valve body and machined hubs for more clutches to hold up against the torque. Nothing fancy, no billet shafts or crazy composite parts, just a going through on a 150,000 mile tranny and upgraded torque converter, we'll see about ujoints later...

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 Post subject: Re: My 250+HP CRD build
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:25 am 
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Joe, I meant to ask you this, but I forgot... Why don't you go with a boost controller for the turbo? I am pretty sure you know about them (basic/manual, electronic, multi stage), on the 300sd, I was never able to get over 9 psi boost due to Wastegate opening too soon, and rather that opening it to adjust it (=pita), I got a boost controller from summit, now if I don't pay attention I get 15-16 psi boost, which is way too much for the engine.

Image

I think it's worth some peace of mind knowing you won't blow your engine due to all that crazy boost your new turbo can put out, lol.

Edit: for this particular engine (om617) the boost controller I have is not good, I think the minimum it opens from is around 20-ish psi, so in my case is like not having it and just blocking the wastegate, but I believe it would be "just perfect" for you. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any specs yet in regards to adjustment values. Let me know if you wanna try it.

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 Post subject: Re: My 250+HP CRD build
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:41 am 
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I did think of using a boost controller, but as of right now my turbo is barely making enough boost now at wot to keep egts down. I'm also wondering if I need to upgrade to a heavier wastegate, I'm wondering if the exhaust pressure is overriding the wastegate and cracking it open. Might have to pressure test a turbo to see if that's possible. If I do end up needing one it'll finally give me an excuse to get up that way he he.

I drank a *little* bit of crown royal Saturday night and woke up Sunday to some purchase notifications. I now have parts coming to build a low pressure turbo for a twin setup. *sigh*

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05 Liberty Limited CRD, converted to KPA 2863 ball bearing and billet turbo, 50hp injectorsl, complete egr delete, cooling fan delete, weeks intake kit, cummins in tank lift pump, ARP studs, 3" turbo back exhaust, samcos, etecno plugs, GDE trans tune, custom GDE engine tune.


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 Post subject: Re: My 250+HP CRD build
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:16 pm 
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diesel_guy86 wrote:
Yea no prob, I'm using a clone of a Garrett gt2860r made by KPA turbos. The quality and craftsmanship of kpa's turbos are double that of Garrett, smooth and clean cast housings, aerospace grade ceramic bearings that are faaaar superior to Garretts steel bearings. Also using a billet machined 63 mm compressor. The wastegate is tied shut. I want to use a 2560 for better low end boost, but I'm afraid I'm going to lose some top end power, so maybe twin turbos???

I think the exhaust manifold could be machined to accept the t25 bolt pattern, but I used some custom made adapters. One piece bolts onto the factory bolt pattern, and the other piece bolts onto that and that one has the t25 bolt pattern.

I removed the vacuum actuator system for the turbo and plugged off the vacuum supply to it. If you machined the exhaust housing to accept the turbo you could use the factory turbo oil feed and drain. I used an line and fittings for easy install and removal, I knew I was going to be experimenting with turbos.

The tune is a GDE hot tune that was modified to run without vnt control. Also has 10% defuel at idle, the 50hp injectors dump enough fuel at idle to cause it to idle rougher than normal. The defuel smoothed it out and there is no vibration at all inside. But the injectors are how I'm getting 270hp out of the original 200hp tune.

Did a 60 mile round trip today, 60 mph with no wind, no ac and got this:

Image


Those are some great numbers you are getting definitely the greenest diesel of all with a large set of balls. :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: My 250+HP CRD build
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:42 pm 
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Yep, and i think its because I got rid of all the emissions stuff, including the turbo. Which is better, an engine that has worse emissions but burns less fuel, or an engine that burns clean but burns a lot of fuel?

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05 Liberty Limited CRD, converted to KPA 2863 ball bearing and billet turbo, 50hp injectorsl, complete egr delete, cooling fan delete, weeks intake kit, cummins in tank lift pump, ARP studs, 3" turbo back exhaust, samcos, etecno plugs, GDE trans tune, custom GDE engine tune.


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 Post subject: Re: My 250+HP CRD build
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:43 pm 
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diesel_guy86 wrote:
I did think of using a boost controller, but as of right now my turbo is barely making enough boost now at wot to keep egts down. I'm also wondering if I need to upgrade to a heavier wastegate, I'm wondering if the exhaust pressure is overriding the wastegate and cracking it open. Might have to pressure test a turbo to see if that's possible. If I do end up needing one it'll finally give me an excuse to get up that way he he.

I drank a *little* bit of crown royal Saturday night and woke up Sunday to some purchase notifications. I now have parts coming to build a low pressure turbo for a twin setup. *sigh*


I'm not sure I get it, or I may have missed something... But the exhaust pressure should keep the wastegate closed, not opened, correct? Since wastegate acts as a valve between compressor and exhaust side of the turbo.

Regarding buying stuff "under influence", I got my bedroom furniture 5 years ago after clubbing in Chicago with some friends, you should have seen my wife's face when the furniture arrived, lol. Still have and use it btw... Probably because Jack is a better inspiration source than crown? Lol.

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2005 kj CRD, samco, suncoast tc, provent, Kennedy lift pump, GDE ECO full torque, 2nd gen filter head, 245/70/16 a/t tires, mopar light bar, fumoto oil valve, OEM Skid Plates, ARB Front bumper and HD OME, tru cool LPD47391 40k GVW tranny cooler (stock cooler delete), FF Dynamics e-fan and shroud, rocker arms replaced, HDS2 190F thermostat.


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 Post subject: Re: My 250+HP CRD build
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:55 pm 
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thermorex wrote:
diesel_guy86 wrote:
I did think of using a boost controller, but as of right now my turbo is barely making enough boost now at wot to keep egts down. I'm also wondering if I need to upgrade to a heavier wastegate, I'm wondering if the exhaust pressure is overriding the wastegate and cracking it open. Might have to pressure test a turbo to see if that's possible. If I do end up needing one it'll finally give me an excuse to get up that way he he.

I drank a *little* bit of crown royal Saturday night and woke up Sunday to some purchase notifications. I now have parts coming to build a low pressure turbo for a twin setup. *sigh*


I'm not sure I get it, or I may have missed something... But the exhaust pressure should keep the wastegate closed, not opened, correct? Since wastegate acts as a valve between compressor and exhaust side of the turbo.

Regarding buying stuff "under influence", I got my bedroom furniture 5 years ago after clubbing in Chicago with some friends, you should have seen my wife's face when the furniture arrived, lol. Still have and use it btw... Probably because Jack is a better inspiration source than crown? Lol.


I think its just a flapper valve of sorts that opens towards the downpipe allowing exhaust to bypass teh turbine. If enough exhaust pressure builds on the inlet side of the turbine it can overcome the wastegate spring and open it up. Whether or not he has a boost controller, the ultimate pressure limit of the wastegate is set by the spring. A boost controller can only cause the wastegate to open sooner by applying pressure from the compressor side of the turbo to the waste gate actuator reducing the psi the wastegate opens at. At least that what I gathered from my experience with my subaru.

diesel_guy, are you saying that you think the wastegate is opening almost all the time and that the engine is simply able to push enough volume that the wastegate cannot bypass all of it to the downpipe? So you are still able to spin the turbo up but not as effectively as if the wastegate were to stay shut? Is it possible that the Hot tune + injector mods are just too rich for the size of the turbo?

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 Post subject: Re: My 250+HP CRD build
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:44 pm 
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Mass-hole, you are correct. I think its staying closed until about 15psi, then it cracks open, I THINK. it seems to labor a tiny bit to get to 20, then you pretty well have to be stomped on it to get 25+psi. I really need to get a 45 or 60 pound gauge so I can see what I'm hitting now. I also need to put a turbo together with a wastegate and pressurize the exhaust side to see if it cracks open and at what psi. I could either go with a higher rated wastegate or buy a housing that has the wastegate hole cast shut. If I go twins, Ill have to use another housing to give me room for exhaust plumbing.

I've noticed a difference in egt if I feather my way into the boost. Start with about 60% throttle, then once it gets to 2500 rpms starting giving it more and more throttle, the boost will follow and egts stay around 1,000°f. If you floor it from a stop the egts climb a lot faster and further since the boost has to "catch up".

I'm anxiously awaiting my " crown parts" to arrive. This project has turned into more of an experiment lol, hope someone has a spare engine laying around....

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05 Liberty Limited CRD, converted to KPA 2863 ball bearing and billet turbo, 50hp injectorsl, complete egr delete, cooling fan delete, weeks intake kit, cummins in tank lift pump, ARP studs, 3" turbo back exhaust, samcos, etecno plugs, GDE trans tune, custom GDE engine tune.


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 Post subject: Re: My 250+HP CRD build
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:51 pm 
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diesel_guy86 wrote:
Mass-hole, you are correct. I think its staying closed until about 15psi, then it cracks open, I THINK. it seems to labor a tiny bit to get to 20, then you pretty well have to be stomped on it to get 25+psi. I really need to get a 45 or 60 pound gauge so I can see what I'm hitting now. I also need to put a turbo together with a wastegate and pressurize the exhaust side to see if it cracks open and at what psi. I could either go with a higher rated wastegate or buy a housing that has the wastegate hole cast shut. If I go twins, Ill have to use another housing to give me room for exhaust plumbing.

I've noticed a difference in egt if I feather my way into the boost. Start with about 60% throttle, then once it gets to 2500 rpms starting giving it more and more throttle, the boost will follow and egts stay around 1,000°f. If you floor it from a stop the egts climb a lot faster and further since the boost has to "catch up".

I'm anxiously awaiting my " crown parts" to arrive. This project has turned into more of an experiment lol, hope someone has a spare engine laying around....


If you entirely seal the wastegate could you overspin the turbo on the big end or do these things not care?

Could you use the factory VNT control system to control the wastegate assuming you got a stiffer spring instead of using a single point boost controller? That way you could probably hit a higher boost limit in the mid range and start dialing it back as the RPMs increase so you dont overspin the turbo. I would think that GDE knows how to do this since they were able to reprogram the ECU to control the electric actuator on their stage 2 turbo package. It would just require custom tuning and testing to tailor it to your turbo. The other issue is that your MAP sensor doesnt appear to want to read above 23 psi.

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 Post subject: Re: My 250+HP CRD build
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:12 pm 
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I *doubt* I could overspin this turbo, but I wouldn't know without a turbo rpm gauge. Using the factory actuator would be the same as a wastegate. The only way to build boost quick on a normal turbo is to close the wastegate, when it spools is up to turbine size, housing a/r and a few other factors. Its a simple, reliable system that takes some experimenting to find the right amount of compromise's.

Also note that the factory actuator runs off vacuum, so it pulls in. Garretts wastegate runs off pressure, so it pushes out. I could unplug the vacuum line that fed the vnt actuator, and run it to the wastegate. that mixed with the spring would definitely give it enough force to keep the wastegate shut.

If anybody decides to do what I did, I would recommend a gt2560r. I think I could make it use the factory air inlet hose, oil drain hose, and slight modification to the downpipe, making it look factory.

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 Post subject: Re: My 250+HP CRD build
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:05 pm 
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Not to rain on the parade, but I would not trust the EVIC mpg numbers at all. Especially with that level of modification to the injectors and ECU. Heck after I first got my GDE eco tune the EVIC read 44 mpg after a trip through the mtns. Actual hand calculated after fillup was 31. So check back after a fillup.

But anyway that's not why you did the build right? :JEEPIN:

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 Post subject: Re: My 250+HP CRD build
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:53 pm 
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I did cuz I didn't trust them either lol. I filled up at the end of the run and I was within a few tenths. I figured I'd get 30-35, but not 40+. Some weekend I think me and the wife will take a weekend long road trip to see what it does to get a full tank average. Mostly city driving with a burnout, and a few pedal to the floor darts I'm getting 26mpg. I think leaving the cooling fan out, the spotlessly clean head/ intake cover, no egr, and valve job are the major contributors.

Searching now for a good used water/meth kit, really don't feel like spending $500+ on a new kit.

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 Post subject: Re: My 250+HP CRD build
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:18 am 
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diesel_guy86 wrote:
I think leaving the cooling fan out, the spotlessly clean head/ intake cover, no egr, and valve job are the major contributors.


What kind of affect do you think the bored injectors and bigger turbo had in all of this?

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 Post subject: Re: My 250+HP CRD build
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:30 am 
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this is an awesome build thread. so if I'm reading this correctly you've pulled out the mechanical cooling fan and havn't replaced it with any type of aftermarket electric cooling fan correct? If this is the case, I'm most def going to pull out mine as well. also, keep us posted on the water/meth kit and how it works out lol. this is something im very interested in adding to my CRD as well. HP+Increased efficiency = awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: My 250+HP CRD build
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:02 am 
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A smokier/ laggier low end with really good top end performance, not the ideal setup for street use. Mpg wise its hard to say, I'd mostly be guessing but I think the injectors either hurt or are the same. The turbo I don't know, on one end the larger turbine means there's less back pressure on the engine at cruise. Its simply breathing better. On the other end its not getting enough boost to mix with the fuel injected, meaning more of the exhaust is going out as heat, instead of power in the cylinders.

This is where I wish I could tune myself, I could try little adjustments here and there and see the results in real time, instead of bugging GDE. Id like to try de fueling the lower revs/cruise rpms to see if that helps or hurts.

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 Post subject: Re: My 250+HP CRD build
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:37 pm 
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Thought I'd share what I've been up to recently. If you didn't see my other post about the map sensor, I'll recap a lil. Comparing my boost gauge with torque pro, I noticed the engines map sensor would stop reading at 22psi. Thinking I had a faulty sensor, I started researching and found out that the crd's stock sensor reads up to 2.5 bar. 1 bar = 1 atmosphere, or 14.7 psi. Since the sensor is an absolute sensor (that's what the "a" in map sensor means) it reads from true 0psi, which is 30" of vacuum. This meant that the engine couldn't see the additional boost my setup is putting out, and therefore couldn't properly control the fueling.

I found another sensor that would fit but is rated for 3.5 bar, or 36psi of boost. This will let the computer control the fueling all the way up.

I also started putting things together for a compound turbo setup. I needed a gt35r turbine wheel with a 71mm compressor wheel, in a gt28 center housing. Only problem, they don't make it! The largest turbine wheel the 71mm compressor comes on is a gt30, I need a gt35. Tried seeing if it would work, but no one has done it, so me being me, I ordered parts (thanks crown royal). Came in the other day, so I snapped some pics, turbo is sent out getting put together with some custom machining on the compressor wheel to fit it to the larger turbine shaft.

Image
Here you can see the billet 71mm compressor on the left, the gt2560 wheel in the middle, and the crds stock 56mm wheel on the right. That is a lot more airflow.

Image
The gt35 wheel on the right is 1.6 times bigger than the gt25 wheel on the left. Ideally you want the second turbine wheel to be 1.5 times the size to properly scavenge the leftover energy from the first turbine. The exhaust is cooler, less dense, and takes up more space, which is why you need a larger turbine to properly handle the flow. My next option is a gt30 wheel that is 1.4, I opted for the larger size for safety.

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 Post subject: Re: My 250+HP CRD build
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:51 am 
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I believe the oem map (the expensive one) can read higher pressures than the cheaper, Chevy replacement. When you don't go crazy with special turbos like you did, the chevy/gm one is good.

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 Post subject: Re: My 250+HP CRD build
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:03 am 
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 Post subject: Re: My 250+HP CRD build
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:04 pm 
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I looked up the specs for the sensor I got from GDE and it stated it was 2.5 bar. Got the new sensor and tune in, but I don't think the tune is quite right cuz it throws a code.

The low pressure turbo will be done and back next week, also have parts coming to rebuild the gt2560r to try. The 2560 is smaller than the 2860, so should have more boost sooner for better driveability. Also going to machine the exhaust housing to accept the turbo directly. The adapter works, but I want to make things more compact and flow better.

I just bought a farm and we are in the process of getting ready to move. The property needs some work and I won't have good garage space until december, so this project is going to slow down until I have access to my heated garage. Once in ill be all-out on this project again, its gonna take me some time anyways to get all the pieces collected, cams, piping, sensors, gauges etc. Next spring/ summer should be interesting, and hoping to get on a dyno to show everyone what these motors are (or aren't!) capable of.

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05 Liberty Limited CRD, converted to KPA 2863 ball bearing and billet turbo, 50hp injectorsl, complete egr delete, cooling fan delete, weeks intake kit, cummins in tank lift pump, ARP studs, 3" turbo back exhaust, samcos, etecno plugs, GDE trans tune, custom GDE engine tune.


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 Post subject: Re: My 250+HP CRD build
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:48 pm 
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Congrats on the new place.
Did you have the tune updated for the new MAP sensor as it has a different scale than the previous one. Pretty much all map sensors are 0-5V and the scale is different depending on the range.
Looking forward for you getting the GT2560r in place. I think that would be a better turbo for your setup. I even think a 2260 would be a great turbo for this size of engine and mods.

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