My 250+HP CRD build

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:58 pm

I'm sure atomization is reduced some, but all the vw, duramax, Cummins, and ford guys are running oversized injectors without issue. I think turning the fuel rate down some will do the trick.

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:58 pm

Got a new tune from kieth today, defueled it some after 75% throttle. The top end power did seem a tad bit lower, but the egts stayed where they were suppose to. Really need to get the exhaust fabbed before I go any farther. Turbo feels like its loosening up. Shut the jeep off, walked into the garage towards the door and heard something, turns out it was the turbo still spooling down. Gotta love ball bearing turbos.

dkenny · **Posted:** Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:45 pm

not sure if its good to compare to a Cummins.
why??
different engine structure..I4 Vs I6..castiron and much heavier.
the 5.9 Cummins was detuned in the Dodge..my dad 2002 motorhome(40ft) with a 5.9 cummins..puts out 300hp..with an Allison tranny..my 99 dodge is only 215hp..with a 47re..tranny..get the picture..its was detune to keep the tranny alive.
sound familar???

now..after fixing the tranny problems with the 47re..yes a new and stronger tune is possible..
with higher boost level..I read about 30-35psi with a stock hx35 turbo(boost fooling), but stock engine.
30-35 is pushing the tubro to its limit..
Hp in 350-400 no problem..
twins..well..

I think it would great if it all works out..I hope it does..I just not sure the comparsion is fair..
just differnet engine..now maybe to a 4bt cummins??

hypothyetically..
so you can get 250hp from a 2.8L..
possilble to 125 from a 1.4L..maybe 150 from a 1.4..think of the MPG when the 150(vs 160stock) isn't needed. like
crusing down the highway unload..maybe 40-50mpg instead of 30?

-dkenny

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:09 pm

Sorry for any confusion, I wasn't comparing it to the Cummins, I was just stating that all the other diesel guys are swapping in larger injectors/nozzles and getting away with it. Kieth new tune really helped a lot, however I still feel like I might be a bit on the large side with the turbo. The compressor is flowing enough air, its just the turbine isn't getting the energy it needs to spool it satisfactorily. I'm not gonna do any more changes until the exhaust get done, I think that will change temps and flow some.
Not sure if I mentioned it, but I swapped in a new turbo, I'll post pics tonight.

And for the record, I was getting 35mpg on a 2 mile stretch of rolling road. Once exhaust gets on I'll be able to do longer trips and check it more accurately.

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:40 pm

I said pics, so here's pics, Garrett gt2860 turbo:

Damaged turbine wheel:

New KPA 2863 turbo with billet wheel:

ChargedTTq · **Joined:** Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:55 pm **Posts:** 3

Hi, So I'm just curious, has anyone actually taken this engine to its limit and beyond? Or are its limits just being assumed based upon designed specifications?

I just find it hard to believe that this 2.8L common-rail engine is somehow taken near its limit at 250hp when as far as I know, a TDi (which has almost a liter less displacement and a more restrictive SOHC design) can make almost the same hp on stock internals. No offense meant.

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:26 pm

Not that I know of. A lot of people have had failures at stock power levels. If it wasn't so expensive to buy another motor I wouldn't mind pushing this engine even further. There's a couple design flaws in this motor that keep it from being a powerhouse like the tdi's. Head bolts are un evenly spaced to squeeze between the awkwardly designed intake ports. The crank goes in/out of the block through the back of the engine, making it a not to beefy of a block.

mass-hole · **Posted:** Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:32 am

diesel_guy86 wrote:

Not that I know of. A lot of people have had failures at stock power levels. If it wasn't so expensive to buy another motor I wouldn't mind pushing this engine even further. There's a couple design flaws in this motor that keep it from being a powerhouse like the tdi's. Head bolts are un evenly spaced to squeeze between the awkwardly designed intake ports. The crank goes in/out of the block through the back of the engine, making it a not to beefy of a block.

Ill be interested to see how the 2560 does. What about this:http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbocharger#GT2860R%20(1) seems to spool a little faster than the 2560 based on the turbine map, but has a little more on the top end. I could be wrong, but was just looking around.

ChargedTTq · **Joined:** Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:55 pm **Posts:** 3

diesel_guy86 wrote:

Not that I know of. A lot of people have had failures at stock power levels. If it wasn't so expensive to buy another motor I wouldn't mind pushing this engine even further. There's a couple design flaws in this motor that keep it from being a powerhouse like the tdi's. Head bolts are un evenly spaced to squeeze between the awkwardly designed intake ports. The crank goes in/out of the block through the back of the engine, making it a not to beefy of a block.

I see, well failures of stock engines is probably poor quality control on the parts suppliers... If theres any room at all for a fire-ring setup then that would solve any head sealing issues.

That block issue sounds weird though, how does the crank go in and out of the block at the back!?

Usually it's in the hands of the professional tuners to determine what the limits are, since they have the cash to invest grenading a few engines! Especially since the power limit of the engine sort of dictates the demand for modding the engine, and therefore the money they can make. If rumor got out that these engines could hold 300-320hp before it needed internals there would probably be much more interest in the CRD. There's 22,000 American CRD's out there ripe for modification!

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:39 pm

Where do you get 22,000 CRDs? The sales numbers were less than 15k according to the collective wisdom here. Subtract the ones that have found themselves in boneyards, and I could list about 20 without too much trouble, Sir Sam has bought far more than that in wrecks (some he rebuilt) and I'd say the real rolling fleet is maybe more like 12k or less... Then you have the reality that MANY of the owners won't ever mod their own vehicles, or blunder into this forum...

Which makes the investment by someone like GDE so amazing - If they sell over 5000 tunes for the CRD, I'd be shocked.

I love the efforts by anyone to modding this vehicle, but I think the main work would come from outside the USA, where far more VM engines live.

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:26 pm

Mass-hole, I started out with that turbo, only a 60 trim compressor wheel instead of the 55. I then upgraded to a KPA copy of the 2860, only with better ceramic bearings instead of steel, and a 63mm billet wheel that outflows Garretts largest compressor wheel for this turbo, a 71mm. The 2560 comes in ball bearing too but has a 48 trim wheel, about 40hp less. However the smaller and more bladed turbine wheel should spin it a lot faster and give me more pressure instead of flow. If it chokes out too much in the higher revs I can get the turbine clipped to open it up a tad.

There's tons of these engines over seas and VM has been making engines for decades. I think the problem is the oil, Chrysler recommended too thin of an oil, I'm gonna start using 15w40 like all my other diesels. Not to mention the egr, just about every diesel with egr has some sort of issue.

ChargedTTq · **Joined:** Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:55 pm **Posts:** 3

geordi wrote:

Where do you get 22,000 CRDs? The sales numbers were less than 15k according to the collective wisdom here. Subtract the ones that have found themselves in boneyards, and I could list about 20 without too much trouble, Sir Sam has bought far more than that in wrecks (some he rebuilt) and I'd say the real rolling fleet is maybe more like 12k or less... Then you have the reality that MANY of the owners won't ever mod their own vehicles, or blunder into this forum...

Which makes the investment by someone like GDE so amazing - If they sell over 5000 tunes for the CRD, I'd be shocked.

I love the efforts by anyone to modding this vehicle, but I think the main work would come from outside the USA, where far more VM engines live.

The research I found everyone was saying it was ~11k per year

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

ChargedTTq wrote:

geordi wrote:

Where do you get 22,000 CRDs? The sales numbers were less than 15k according to the collective wisdom here. Subtract the ones that have found themselves in boneyards, and I could list about 20 without too much trouble, Sir Sam has bought far more than that in wrecks (some he rebuilt) and I'd say the real rolling fleet is maybe more like 12k or less... Then you have the reality that MANY of the owners won't ever mod their own vehicles, or blunder into this forum...

Which makes the investment by someone like GDE so amazing - If they sell over 5000 tunes for the CRD, I'd be shocked.

I love the efforts by anyone to modding this vehicle, but I think the main work would come from outside the USA, where far more VM engines live.

The research I found everyone was saying it was ~11k per year

Counting US and Canada the KJ CRD sales were roughly as follows:

2005 10,000
2006 15,000

The total sales was almost 25k. With a good 20% destroyed by now.

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:28 pm

And about the fire ring setup, the liners stick up above the deck to pinch the head gaskets fire ring. Only problem is that I'm sure there's some variance between them. If I could I'd have the liners and deck machined flat, and then have the head o ringed, much more reliable setup than fire rings and never go bad. And it would ensure a more uniform pinch on the head gasket. O ring setups are good for up to 70 psi of boost so I would think it would eliminate a head gasket failure. Only downside is the engine would have to be removed and torn down.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:30 pm

First time I have ever heard numbers that high. I trust your info, but that seems like quite a lot for how infrequently they have been seen and how clueless the dealers are about them.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:38 pm

dkenny wrote:

not sure if its good to compare to a Cummins.
now..after fixing the tranny problems with the 47re..yes a new and stronger tune is possible..
with higher boost level..I read about 30-35psi with a stock hx35 turbo(boost fooling), but stock engine.
30-35 is pushing the tubro to its limit..
Hp in 350-400 no problem..
-dkenny

FYI: I am pushing 40+ psig boost on my 98 24 valve with a stock turbo and a few other goodies. EZ Edge, 5" exhaust/turbo back, AFE intake & exhaust, huge 10 inch air filter, Suncoast TC, just to name a few. Wastegate is completely blocked off. Been this way for well over 10 years now!!! IT ROCKS and is a solid machine! :SOMBRERO:

Working on getting this little VM 4 banger pushed up to its true potential... it is getting better slowly$$$ :goink:

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:58 pm

Serious question for the people that could know far more than I do about adding power and engine upgrades...

Why would an engine at stock power have lost the bottom end and started tapping, before putting the rod end (minus the cap) through the side of the block? I've never been able to figure out why that would have happened, and answering that would be the first step to preventing it in the future.

Engine #1 failed the entire #1 cylinder, I believe because of a blown turbo and I didn't know what was happening at the time. But #2... It was summer, oil was clean and fresh 5w-40 synth, normal operations, no excessive power, GDE eco tune. Thoughts?

Please ask or throw any theories out there, and I'd be happy to fill in the answers. I don't want this to happen to anyone else, and I can't explain it. If I ever get another CRD, I sure as hell don't want it happening to me either!

NotPicky · **Posted:** Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:03 pm

Great Job Joe!
I feel bad about that gt2560. That's what I get for buying used turbo off ebay.

The guy that I sent my T25 or T3 to stock crd turbo flange adapter design to is Joey Fanguy (985) 360-3435 . His ebay name is customfabshopcom. Those adapters are for $125 on ebay.

minisub · **Posted:** Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:13 pm

geordi wrote:

First time I have ever heard numbers that high. I trust your info, but that seems like quite a lot for how infrequently they have been seen and how clueless the dealers are about them.

Break those numbers down and not so surprising. Recall it was not available in most of the Northeast states (where most of the people/customers are) but using 50 as a basis because our northern neighbors are much further along in their acceptance of oil burners, that makes for 500 total per "state.". There were ~ 300k libertys total sold in '05-06. If I recall, the total run was way north of a million, so 25k is a proverbial drop in the bucket.

And of course I own one. I spent 13 years keeping one of the 6000 diesel tahoes made running with no support except that I found online!

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:22 pm

I'm knocking on the door to 30psi, I think I'll be just in it with the next turbo, I really don't see the need to go much past there. I'm afraid at that point I'll be heating the air more than I am compressing it, plus can forget about the plastic end-tanked intercooler that cracks on stock boost. If you've had the head off and really looked at it, its not a very "efficient" design. See those runners on top of the valve cover/ cam holder? Those channel air to one of the two intake valves. So one valve has a nice short port to the air supply, while the other has a long-a** hallway it has to go through before it gets to the other valve. Air travels the path of least resistance so more air is gonna try to take the short route, leaving the excess to go around. I think this is what seriously limits the flow on these heads. Im guessing that 300-325hp would be the max this engine could put out and still be somewhat "safe" . I think after that you'd be spending a huge amount of money on machine work just trying to keep it together. 250hp in a liberty is plenty, the same year these were built the duramax's and Cummins' were only making 300-320hp, out of 5.9 and 6.6L respectively.
I still *MAY* do a performance grind on the cams to help it breathe a lil bit, but after that any more machining to wring out more power will cost more than its worth, in my opinion.
Hell I'm happy that I was able to ditch the factory turbo!
Geordi, did the bearing wipe out on #1? And #2, is that the one bought used?

My 250+HP CRD build

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