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Holy Smoking Brakes, Batman!
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Author:  europachris [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Holy Smoking Brakes, Batman!
So my wife gets home from work today with the CRD, and as she gets out she says "can you smell that?". I said "Yeah, a fire truck just went by", figuring there was maybe a brush fire nearby or something.

I look up from what I'm doing in the garage out to her CRD in the driveway, and OMFG! the brakes are SMOKING! :shock: Specifically, the rear brakes. First thought - parking brake. Nope, it was off, and she always double checks it after she gets going, not to mention the big red warning light on the dash when it's on.

A closer look revealed mostly the right rear was the hottest, but the left rear was also quite hot, but not smoking.

I looked at the parking brake linkage while she actuated the hand lever and that seemed to be releasing all the way.

So, it appears that the right rear caliper has siezed up somehow:cry:. I took it for a short drive after dinner, and while I couldn't get the thing to smoke, it was running hotter than the other brakes.

This thing was just in the shop for 2 new lower ball joints, an upper track bar joint for the rear suspension, and after that, it had to go back in for a loose motor mount. Now this. It's an '05 with 21K miles. Not even a year old yet. We've also had it in twice for TWO EGR replacements.

Fortunately, we've not had any tranny issues, yet (knock on wood) and just had the flash done for the reprogram, so hopefully THAT won't poop out. We really love the CRD, but thank Goodness that this is all covered under warranty. I would be really hot if I had to eat the bill for all of this.

Even more annoying is aside from the EGR and motor mount issues, this is Liberty related, not specific to the CRD. You would think DCX would have the suspension and brakes nailed on this vehicle after 5 years of production. Sigh...

So, it's another round of figure it out and wait at the local dealer....

Chris
Author:  oldnavy [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
Nothing is perfect, always some yahoo goofing off on the line when he should be watching what he's doing.
Author:  europachris [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
oldnavy wrote:
Nothing is perfect, always some yahoo goofing off on the line when he should be watching what he's doing.


How true.

I've read about TDI's having issues with the brake pins corroding and siezing up. Think this is the likely culprit? After only one winter?

At this rate, the thing will dissolve in about 3 years.....

Chris
Author:  oldnavy [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Could be, but I suspect an ABS and/or ESP problem. Electronic grimlins as it were.
Author:  RFCRD [ Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
europachris wrote:
oldnavy wrote:
Nothing is perfect, always some yahoo goofing off on the line when he should be watching what he's doing.


How true.

I've read about TDI's having issues with the brake pins corroding and siezing up. Think this is the likely culprit? After only one winter?

At this rate, the thing will dissolve in about 3 years.....

Chris


If you a willing to wrench on this yourself, pull the pins that the calipers slide on. I assume you drive in salt? Almost every vehicle I've owned with disc brakes and run through salt have had these pins corrode and stick at some point. I usually clean them on a bench grinder style wire brush, slobber them up with neversieze and reinstall. It's an old K-car trick I learned, the neversieze will hold in there for about a year.
Author:  oldnavy [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:03 am ]
Post subject: 
RFCRD wrote:
europachris wrote:
oldnavy wrote:
Nothing is perfect, always some yahoo goofing off on the line when he should be watching what he's doing.


How true.

I've read about TDI's having issues with the brake pins corroding and siezing up. Think this is the likely culprit? After only one winter?

At this rate, the thing will dissolve in about 3 years.....

Chris


If you a willing to wrench on this yourself, pull the pins that the calipers slide on. I assume you drive in salt? Almost every vehicle I've owned with disc brakes and run through salt have had these pins corrode and stick at some point. I usually clean them on a bench grinder style wire brush, slobber them up with neversieze and reinstall. It's an old K-car trick I learned, the neversieze will hold in there for about a year.
Another disavantage you Yankee's have. Down here it will take about four time that long to happen, maybe more. 8) :wink:
Author:  europachris [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:48 am ]
Post subject: 
I'd be happy to wrench on it myself - after the warranty. I have a moral objection to doing work that should have been done right the first time by someone else.

That said, I've done all the work on my VW TDI, even when it was under warranty, as the dealers usually end up making the problem worse, or making an entirely new problem.

I'd be happy to take it into the dealer after each winter with the brakes smoking and tell them to fix it. However, if I end up with a smoking brake in the middle of a road trip somewhere, that's goint to be a real pain in the butt.

Chris
Author:  RFCRD [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:19 am ]
Post subject: 
Goo luck. Think DC will only back the brakes for 12,000 miles. You just may be out of warranty on this one. Maybe they will cut you some slack on a caliper problem???
Author:  tired_old_dave [ Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  europachris
Since the wrenches threw parts instead of doing the correct lower ball joint test what makes you think they didn't mess up your hydraulic brake line or something else. Do you have another dealer? We can all discuss all the numerous things that can cause service or emergency brake failures to produce this effect and did the rotors ever get white hot and what about the axle bearing and grease seal? Good luck. I would do some wheel pulling or find another dealer.
Author:  europachris [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:29 am ]
Post subject:  Parking brake was dragging
tired_old_dave wrote:
Since the wrenches threw parts instead of doing the correct lower ball joint test what makes you think they didn't mess up your hydraulic brake line or something else. Do you have another dealer? We can all discuss all the numerous things that can cause service or emergency brake failures to produce this effect and did the rotors ever get white hot and what about the axle bearing and grease seal? Good luck. I would do some wheel pulling or find another dealer.


Good questions! I do believe they did a 'proper' ball joint test to find out the issues, as my wife had noticed the rear end clunk from the track bar joint, which is now gone, and also some front end noises. The clunking after the ball joint change was a slightly different character than before, so the motor mount clunk was 'blending in' with the ball joint clunk.

The diagnosis from the dealer on the brakes was it was the parking brake(s) dragging. They said the brakes were adjusted too tightly. The brakes were hot, indeed, but not red/white hot. By that point they would have been on fire. These were just smoking a bit and smelly. Still not good.

I inspected all the brake lines and parking brake actuation before we took it to the dealer, and all appeared just fine, so I don't believe it was due to the previous work.

Indeed, during my test drive, the 'hub' area of the brake disc was what was getting the hottest, hotter than the disc surface itself. I thought that odd, but since the parking brake shoes are inside that hub area, it makes perfect sense.

The dealer disassembled everything, and stated they found no evidence of heat damage, and upon returning home from the dealer, the brakes were dead cool compared to previous.

I'm not sure I buy all of this, but it does seem to add up, with a little rounding....

Chris
Author:  RFCRD [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Parking brake was dragging
europachris wrote:
tired_old_dave wrote:
Since the wrenches threw parts instead of doing the correct lower ball joint test what makes you think they didn't mess up your hydraulic brake line or something else. Do you have another dealer? We can all discuss all the numerous things that can cause service or emergency brake failures to produce this effect and did the rotors ever get white hot and what about the axle bearing and grease seal? Good luck. I would do some wheel pulling or find another dealer.


Good questions! I do believe they did a 'proper' ball joint test to find out the issues, as my wife had noticed the rear end clunk from the track bar joint, which is now gone, and also some front end noises. The clunking after the ball joint change was a slightly different character than before, so the motor mount clunk was 'blending in' with the ball joint clunk.

The diagnosis from the dealer on the brakes was it was the parking brake(s) dragging. They said the brakes were adjusted too tightly. The brakes were hot, indeed, but not red/white hot. By that point they would have been on fire. These were just smoking a bit and smelly. Still not good.

I inspected all the brake lines and parking brake actuation before we took it to the dealer, and all appeared just fine, so I don't believe it was due to the previous work.

Indeed, during my test drive, the 'hub' area of the brake disc was what was getting the hottest, hotter than the disc surface itself. I thought that odd, but since the parking brake shoes are inside that hub area, it makes perfect sense.

The dealer disassembled everything, and stated they found no evidence of heat damage, and upon returning home from the dealer, the brakes were dead cool compared to previous.

I'm not sure I buy all of this, but it does seem to add up, with a little rounding....

Chris


At least they isolated a simple problem. A couple of years, ago a co-worker came to me needing brakes on an Exploder that the just bought used. Pulled the rear discs off and didn't see anything left that I would recognize as a brake shoe! Found that area packed with rust, salt, mud (actually wonder if he got a flood car). Was so bad that didn't even take the time to dissassemble it, just took a hammer and knocked it to the floor. Started over with new.
Author:  tired_old_dave [ Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  europachris
Glad everything worked out and the rotors didn't warp dissapating the heat. The e-brake on discs was/is a Liberty issue and a big issue for gm trucks for awhile. We never had an e-brake. The shop manual talked about adjusting the cables by removing the console. After a strong demand to my purchasing dealer, they adjusted the star adjusters for the rears when we had the rear brakes assemblies replaced for the "grinding(not morning rusted rotors)noise from hell" fixed. You could hear the ratcheting when you pulled the handle but the e-brakes would not even hold the liberty in the drive way. Check on a slight rise to make sure they are holding like I did for my wife. A ratchet noise doesn't mean you have an e-brake.
Author:  grywlfbg [ Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: europachris
tired_old_dave wrote:
Glad everything worked out and the rotors didn't warp dissapating the heat. The e-brake on discs was/is a Liberty issue and a big issue for gm trucks for awhile. We never had an e-brake. The shop manual talked about adjusting the cables by removing the console. After a strong demand to my purchasing dealer, they adjusted the star adjusters for the rears when we had the rear brakes assemblies replaced for the "grinding(not morning rusted rotors)noise from hell" fixed. You could hear the ratcheting when you pulled the handle but the e-brakes would not even hold the liberty in the drive way. Check on a slight rise to make sure they are holding like I did for my wife. A ratchet noise doesn't mean you have an e-brake.


Hmm, yeah I don't think my e-brake has ever worked. Haven't worried much about it since it's an auto tranny but figured I'd get fired up one day and adjust the cable (figured they just didn't adjust it from the factory). Now I'm wondering if there's more to it? I'll do a proper check when I get back from London next week. Have the whole wkend of the 13th/14th free for car stuff (need to give the Libby some paint TLC) so I'll try to check it then.
Author:  europachris [ Tue May 02, 2006 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Smoking Brakes, Part Deux!!
:evil: Wife came home today, and the right rear brake was practically on fire. The entire wheel was too hot to touch, and the heat was just pouring off the brake disc.

Sorry, our Jeep Dealer, it was NOT the e-brake hanging up or being misadjusted. There's a serious caliper issue going on here.

The wife also states that the brake pedal 'vibrates' if you sit with a foot on it (like at a stoplight) for a minute or so. Not continuous, but a 'buzz', pause, 'buzz', pause. I don't know if the two are related (like the ABS system about to crud itself) or the vibration is due to the overheated brake boiling the fluid or something?

So, back to the dealer for the 4th time in as many weeks. This is getting FRIGGIN' OLD!

We also noticed intermittently lately that water is dripping from the A/C drain but the A/C hasn't been selected. It appears that the compressor runs when the selector is in the FLOOR position, and a quick search here seems to confirm that. Kinda dumb, if you ask me. At least it's not some electrical gremlin.....yet.

Our faith in this vehicle (and our dealer) is rapidly evaporating. We've had more problems in 1 year with this CRD than all our other vehicles in 12 years combined. Not a good track record. I suppose our time was due for a lemon.

Chris
Author:  oldnavy [ Tue May 02, 2006 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking Brakes, Part Deux!!
europachris wrote:
:evil: Wife came home today, and the right rear brake was practically on fire. The entire wheel was too hot to touch, and the heat was just pouring off the brake disc.

Sorry, our Jeep Dealer, it was NOT the e-brake hanging up or being misadjusted. There's a serious caliper issue going on here.

The wife also states that the brake pedal 'vibrates' if you sit with a foot on it (like at a stoplight) for a minute or so. Not continuous, but a 'buzz', pause, 'buzz', pause. I don't know if the two are related (like the ABS system about to crud itself) or the vibration is due to the overheated brake boiling the fluid or something?

So, back to the dealer for the 4th time in as many weeks. This is getting FRIGGIN' OLD!

We also noticed intermittently lately that water is dripping from the A/C drain but the A/C hasn't been selected. It appears that the compressor runs when the selector is in the FLOOR position, and a quick search here seems to confirm that. Kinda dumb, if you ask me. At least it's not some electrical gremlin.....yet.

Our faith in this vehicle (and our dealer) is rapidly evaporating. We've had more problems in 1 year with this CRD than all our other vehicles in 12 years combined. Not a good track record. I suppose our time was due for a lemon.

Chris
I understand what you mean and how you feel, I have had 2 in 36 years, one Ford & one Toyota.
Author:  Guest [ Tue May 02, 2006 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking Brakes, Part Deux!!
europachris wrote:
:evil: Wife came home today, and the right rear brake was practically on fire. The entire wheel was too hot to touch, and the heat was just pouring off the brake disc.

Sorry, our Jeep Dealer, it was NOT the e-brake hanging up or being misadjusted. There's a serious caliper issue going on here.

The wife also states that the brake pedal 'vibrates' if you sit with a foot on it (like at a stoplight) for a minute or so. Not continuous, but a 'buzz', pause, 'buzz', pause. I don't know if the two are related (like the ABS system about to crud itself) or the vibration is due to the overheated brake boiling the fluid or something?

So, back to the dealer for the 4th time in as many weeks. This is getting FRIGGIN' OLD!

We also noticed intermittently lately that water is dripping from the A/C drain but the A/C hasn't been selected. It appears that the compressor runs when the selector is in the FLOOR position, and a quick search here seems to confirm that. Kinda dumb, if you ask me. At least it's not some electrical gremlin.....yet.

Our faith in this vehicle (and our dealer) is rapidly evaporating. We've had more problems in 1 year with this CRD than all our other vehicles in 12 years combined. Not a good track record. I suppose our time was due for a lemon.

Chris


Well, this is not a CRD issue, and not even a vehicle issue. This is 100% a dealer problem, and unfortunately, the trend for american dealerships as they fight to stay financially afloat.

I found a local shop to repair my rear differential and it was worth every penny to have someone that knows what their doing work on it...

Keep the Jeep for sure, go somewhere else for help.
Author:  europachris [ Tue May 02, 2006 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking Brakes, Part Deux!!
alljeep wrote:

Well, this is not a CRD issue, and not even a vehicle issue. This is 100% a dealer problem, and unfortunately, the trend for american dealerships as they fight to stay financially afloat.

I found a local shop to repair my rear differential and it was worth every penny to have someone that knows what their doing work on it...

Keep the Jeep for sure, go somewhere else for help.


Indeed. Our dealer seems to be lacking in basic diagnostic skills, and goes after the 'easy' solution. Granted, I drove the CRD tonight, and could not reproduce the brake issue. It's highly intermittent, which is bad for figuring it out. It's either mechanical, which would be solved by caliper replacement, or electrical with something in the ABS system.

The kicker is the CRD is well within any and all warranties at this point, so I'm very hesitant to spend my hard earned cash to fix issues that DCX should have to eat. I've been on the supplier side of the auto industry, and had to eat a few poop sandwiches from Tier 2 suppliers to GM and DCX that we would occasionally send bad parts to (not on purpose, of course). The automakers take warranty failures very seriously, so i'm going to do my part and complain loudly, causing heat and grief (I hope) to some shlock engineer responsible for these crummy designs (like the ball joints).

Chris
Author:  Jacobi [ Tue May 02, 2006 10:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
Sorry I didn't get around to posting this earlier....It's the brake booster! Same exact thing happened to mine! I noticed it because of the shimmy in the steering wheel and reduction in mileage. I was only getting around 20 mpg (gasp, this isn't a gasser)! Just tell the dealer to call it in, wait on hold for a couple hours, and they'll tell your mechanic it's the booster, guaranteed!!!

-Barry-
Author:  europachris [ Wed May 03, 2006 8:18 am ]
Post subject: 
Jacobi wrote:
Sorry I didn't get around to posting this earlier....It's the brake booster! Same exact thing happened to mine! I noticed it because of the shimmy in the steering wheel and reduction in mileage. I was only getting around 20 mpg (gasp, this isn't a gasser)! Just tell the dealer to call it in, wait on hold for a couple hours, and they'll tell your mechanic it's the booster, guaranteed!!!

-Barry-


Hey, Barry, thanks! Can you give me any more details on the symptoms of your failure? What year is your Libby? CRD I assume?

I'm calling the dealer this morning to get an appt. and will mention the booster. I was right on last time with the loose motor mount being the source of the clunk, and likely saved the dealer a lot of time figuring it out, thanks to the wonderful resources on these message boards.

Chris
Author:  Jacobi [ Thu May 04, 2006 7:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well, how'd it turn out?
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