Another TC stalling post...but is it my TC?

SlowDraw · **Posted:** Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:32 pm

Okay, I have read and searched on a ton of "TC stalling issue" related posts, but have not found one that matches my problem exactly. Any direction from you pros would be great. My post is a little long, but I wanted to try and include as much info as possible.

Here is what I am working with....
-2005 Liberty CRD Limited & Off-Road Package
-K&N Filter...newly recharged
-GDE Eco Tune (so the guy said when I bought it last year)
-Newer model fuel pump and recently replaced fuel filter
-Timing Belt and pulleys replaced last year around 100K miles
-Transmission serviced with both Transmission Filters replaced.
-New fan and fan bracket replaced after it somehow cracked a few months ago.
-I have had three different shops look at my transmission/TC and they all say it tests fine. The stalling issue is hard to repeat for them, especially when they have it on the rack hooked up to the CPU.

Here is the problem...
Summary:
-When I come to a stop, the engine will stall and die (but not always), and I can stop it from stalling if I let up on the break just before I stop for a split second, and then reapply.
-Outside temperature does not seem to affect the issue, as it has been doing it for the last 6 or so months (winter and summer weather)

Detail Scenario (1):
-When I leave from work in the afternoon, I will let the engine warm up for a minute, and then take off. I have to get out of downtown for the first 2 miles or so, in which I have to stop at numerous lights/signs. The engine does not stall during this time when I come a stop. But when I hit my first long stretch where I can get the Jeep up past 35mph, the next stop light, and all others, the engine starts wanting to stall when I come to a stop.
-I eventually get on the hwy and travel about 15 miles averaging 65 MPH before I get into my subdivision, when I come to the stop signs after traveling on the hwy, the stalling issue does not happen when I come to a stop.

Detail Scenario (2):
-When I leave my house in the morning, I let my rig warm up for about 10 minutes while I make my coffee, then head off to work.
-There are about 3 stops before I get to the hwy, and do not usually have the stalling issue.
-After traveling about 15 miles averaging 65mph, I come to my first stop light in town, and the engine wants to stall when I come to a stop. It does the same thing for all other stops I come too.

How I keep it from stalling...this is weird to me:
As mentioned above, the stalling happens when I am almost at a complete stop...I can hear and feel the engine starting to stall. At the first sign of the engine starting to stall, I will let up on the break for a split second let the jeep roll about a foot, and then press down on the break to complete my stop. The engine rpms jump a little during this half second and idles out like it should. Note that the engine usually does not stall as I am slowing down, but only that last few feet before I come to a complete stop (every now and then the engine will make stalling sounds sooner in the stop, but very rarely). This seems really weird that by lifting up on the break will affect the stalling issue.

Other Random Things that might be relevant:
-This winter I was driving home in a winter storm, and my battery light and the lighting bolt light came on, and I lost power when I got home and parked it. I replaced the battery and had my alternator checked, and the mechanic said it was all fine and did not see any issues.
-There kind of a squeaking sound coming from my engine compartment, like a pulley bearing is starting to go.
-When I shift into drive from Park, and when I shift from reverse to drive, my driveline and/or transfer case makes a kind of clunk sound.

I am no gear head, but have a basic understanding of the mechanics of rigs. After reading a bunch of posts, I do not know if this is a Transmission or Torque Converter problem, or could it be a fuel, or breathing issue? I have already checked to make sure I have the newer fuel pump, and have replaced the fuel filter, as well as the transmission filters.

I know this was a long one, but I hope I painted a good enough picture for you pros to help me out. Would hate to replace the TC and find out it was something else that was allot cheaper.

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:00 pm

Im more of an engine head and not a transmission head, but it sounds like something is stopping the torque converter from un locking. Don't know the exact mph the convertor first locks, but its after 40mph, which coincides with what you stated.

The clank you hear could be a universal joint on its way out, mine went around 120,000mi. Others will weigh in that will know a lot more.

flman · **Posted:** Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:20 pm

Did you put ATF+4 and Only ATF+4 in during service?

SlowDraw · **Posted:** Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:34 pm

flman wrote:

Did you put ATF+4 and Only ATF+4 in during service?

Yes...that is what I told the service shop to put in, and when I called them after to check which fluid they used, the confirmed it.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:23 pm

Two tips on this problem from my own 05 CRD experience! First, quickly place transmission in neutral anytime you feel a stall taking place, then place back in drive after you have made your stop and are ready to pull off.
Second and most important to help solve the problem: Add some more ATF+4 to your transmission. Slightly overfill it to just above the full when hot mark when the fluid is cold and see if it doesn't stop the stalling problem when stopping. :?:

It is a known problem of the dipstick not reading the correct level of fluid in the transmission....
Low oil level when the fluid is not up to normal temperature causes the oil pump to suck air and foam the oil which causes this problem according some on this forum.
Hope this helps? :SOMBRERO:

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:35 am

For what it's worth tests show the K&N does a relatively poor job of filtering particulate matter compared to normal paper filters
GDE Eco Tune (so the guy said when I bought it last year) - likely but email Keith at GDE with your VIN to confirm
Transmission serviced with both Transmission Filters replaced - what brand filters?
Shop visits - I assume the CEL is not on but it might be worth considering having a DCJ dealer pull codes in case there is a transmission code that's not triggering a CEL

For what it's worth stop wasting fuel warming the engine up. That has not been a recommended practice for decades. In all but the coldest climates (where you should use the block heater) simply start up, wait for the idiot lights to go out, put in gear and drive at moderate speeds (say under 45mph) until coolant temp gauge needle starts to move (maybe 1-2 miles in summer). "Warming" up the engine does nothing to warm up other drive train fluids but moderate driving does both. Now if you driveway exits almost directly onto an Interstate my advice might be slightly different.

Sounds to me like you stalling mostly occurs after driving a bit which means the tranny fluid should be warm/hot and that letting off the brake, which likely raises engine RPM, prevents the stall. Have you tried keeping the brake on and shifting into Neutral? I suspect a tranny line pressure issue which could be related to a) off brand filters; b) tranny fluid not ATF+4; c) insufficient ATF added after service. The latter is not at all uncommon and I say X2 to just add a quart of ATF+4 and see if the problem goes away.

Random items
1. battery issue and squeak make me wonder about alternator clutch pulley. Pop hood; pop engine cover; crank up and run at idle; look down serpentine belt at belt tensioner; is it essentially stable or is it bouncing; if bouncing and/or if there is lots of red dust behind the plastic clutch pulley cover then your alternator pulley is shot. Pulley can be replaced (see idParts) or you can likely score a lifetime warranty alternator assembly at like AutoZone.
2. clunk is very likely drive shaft "U" joints. "U" joints can only be adequately inspected if drive shaft is pulled (mark so it goes back the same way).

SlowDraw · **Posted:** Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:05 am

Papaindigo and WWDiesel, thanks for your detailed replies and thoughts. When I had the tranny serviced, I did not do a full system flush. I may take it back and have them do a flush and supply the filters and fluid myself and have them charge me a bottle service. What filters do you guys recommend for the tranny?

I will have them inspect my U-Joint as well, and the alternator clutch. I would try and do allot of this stuff myself but I do not have the space at the house.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:08 am

Trans fluid level when filled all the way up is actually about 2" above the full hot mark when cold and not running. Most accurate is checking when hot, with engine running.

DOC

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:40 am

SlowDraw - my advise:
1. ATF+4 runs ca. $6-7 at any local parts store. Just get a quart and add it before you do anything else as that may solve your problem.
2. I cannot in all honesty recommend a flush; not based on personal experience but I've read too many posts here and elsewhere to the effect that flushing, if not done right whatever that means, can cause more harm than good.
3. Filters (Mopar, WIX, NAPA, MANN) fluid (ATF+4 only - any name brand)
4. don't waste $ on having a shop check the alternator clutch - what I posted is how to do it and that can be done in your driveway in like 5-10 minutes with no tools other than maybe a flashlight. Now if it's bad you may want someone to change the pulley or your alternator.
5. like I said on the "U" joints if you have them inspected be sure it's done OFF the vehicle not just "we put it on a lift and they looked ok". The latter method simply will not identify bad "U" joints.

SlowDraw · **Posted:** Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:49 am

papaindigo wrote:

SlowDraw - my advise:
1. ATF+4 runs ca. $6-7 at any local parts store. Just get a quart and add it before you do anything else as that may solve your problem.
2. I cannot in all honesty recommend a flush; not based on personal experience but I've read too many posts here and elsewhere to the effect that flushing, if not done right whatever that means, can cause more harm than good.
3. Filters (Mopar, WIX, NAPA, MANN) fluid (ATF+4 only - any name brand)
4. don't waste $ on having a shop check the alternator clutch - what I posted is how to do it and that can be done in your driveway in like 5-10 minutes with no tools other than maybe a flashlight. Now if it's bad you may want someone to change the pulley or your alternator.
5. like I said on the "U" joints if you have them inspected be sure it's done OFF the vehicle not just "we put it on a lift and they looked ok". The latter method simply will not identify bad "U" joints.

Thanks for the followup. What is the risk of over filling the transmission with fluid. I have a hard time reading my stick when checking the level for some reason. Isn't there a big risk of overfilling and blowing some seals or something?

thermorex · **Posted:** Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:25 pm

You can go 1/2 inch over, when hot and in park without any issue.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:02 pm

SlowDraw wrote:

Papaindigo and WWDiesel, thanks for your detailed replies and thoughts. When I had the tranny serviced, I did not do a full system flush. I may take it back and have them do a flush and supply the filters and fluid myself and have them charge me a bottle service. What filters do you guys recommend for the tranny?

I will have them inspect my U-Joint as well, and the alternator clutch. I would try and do allot of this stuff myself but I do not have the space at the house.

IMHO, skip the flush, save your money, just be sure and bring the level up above the full mark when refilling the the tranny when it is cold. :mrgreen:

You cannot go wrong withe OEM Mopar filters, a little extra money, but piece of mind! :wink:

Some on here like the NAPA filters and I would not be against using them. They are well liked and rated highly!
Auto chain store brand name filters I would stay away from, some are re-boxed made in China of low quality.... :roll:

SlowDraw · **Posted:** Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:28 am

Alright, a little update from me on the issue.

I added a quart of ATF+4, and now the level sits right at the hot marker on the stick (in park)...note this is after the jeep sat for about three hours (so cool, but not fully cold). So far the stalling issue has all but went away...I can feel the engine stutter every now and then when coming to a stop, but not everytime like it was. I have been testing it for a little over a week, in which it has been driven in temperatures from 40 degrees to the mid 90's. Conclusion, I think the last tranny service I had done put to little fluid back. I am going to pay attention to it for a few more weeks, and might add half a quart more if it still stutters on occasion.

As for that random noise I was talking about...I was pretty sure after inspecting my belts it was my alternator going out (bearings on the pully). Was going to go and pick up a new part that weekend, but sure enough it started making even stranger noises on the drive home the next day, and then my battery light and lighting bolt light came on. Had to put the battery on a long charge the next morning to even get it started. Drove it to my local mechanic, and sure enough the bearings in the alternator pulley went to crap...the metal shavings on the belt was hard to miss. Got that replaced and now it is purring like a kitten...knock on wood.

Thanks to all of you who chimed in and took the time to read my lengthy post. A quart of tranny fluid was allot cheaper then a new TC and Tranny build. Love this site, and I might even fall back in love with my CRD....maybe after the lift.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:26 am

Glad your problems have been solved for now! :BANANA:

You still need to add a little more ATF+4 and bring that level up ABOVE the hot full mark when the Jeep is completely cooled off. As myself and others on here have advised you, bring it up about 1/2 inch above the full mark. It will not hurt a thing and may just simply and completely solve your stalling problem for good!!!!

The transmission dipsticks are notorious for not showing the correct fluid level! :dizzy:

SargeIndustries · **Posted:** Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:30 pm

My jeep use to stall before I brought it to jeep to have the TC replaced for the recall. They said the TC was shot and sending particulates through the transmission causing the stalling situation. Both the TC and transmission were replaced on warranty at about 55,000 miles.

SlowDraw · **Posted:** Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:58 pm

SargeIndustries wrote:

My jeep use to stall before I brought it to jeep to have the TC replaced for the recall. They said the TC was shot and sending particulates through the transmission causing the stalling situation. Both the TC and transmission were replaced on warranty at about 55,000 miles.

Thanks for the info..unfortunately I'm the third owner of my Jeep, and far past any factory warranty. Seems like the tranny fluid was the main cause of my problem. Still need to find some time to add some more to bring the level up to what another user posted as the right level. Either way I should start putting some money aside for a new TC in the future.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:21 pm

SlowDraw wrote:

SargeIndustries wrote:

My jeep use to stall before I brought it to jeep to have the TC replaced for the recall. They said the TC was shot and sending particulates through the transmission causing the stalling situation. Both the TC and transmission were replaced on warranty at about 55,000 miles.

Thanks for the info..unfortunately I'm the third owner of my Jeep, and far past any factory warranty. Seems like the tranny fluid was the main cause of my problem. Still need to find some time to add some more to bring the level up to what another user posted as the right level. Either way I should start putting some money aside for a new TC in the future.

Save your coins, buy yourself a Suncoast TC and never look back. It costs a little more, but it is the best there is available for the CRD! I have one, and I am running a Stage IV Hot tune and NO shutter or slip of any kind!!! It Rocks and engine idles smother with it due to its heavyer mass....

Another TC stalling post...but is it my TC?

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