Issue after changing the timing belt

Worthing · **Posted:** Tue May 13, 2014 6:41 pm

Hi, I just finished changing my timing belt, the first time it started up after a few seconds of holding the key in the start position for much longer than usual. After getting everything back together it wouldn't start at all. So I opened everything back up an noticed that the timing belt tensioner was a bit off, tightened it and now starting is similar to the first time. Takes a few seconds holding the key, and then when it does start it begins roughly. I'm worried that I might have timed the engine incorrectly and possibly messed up some valves or rockers. Anyone had this problem or have any suggestions?

Worthing · **Posted:** Tue May 13, 2014 7:13 pm

Update: I talked to Jeff at Dynamic Diesel in Snohomish, WA (as recommended on the list of CRD mechanics by state) and was told it is most likely mistimed. Anyone know if there is a write-up on how to re-time or correct a mistimed engine?

Thanks,
Worthing

05infernoCRDL · **Posted:** Wed May 14, 2014 1:51 am

Take it all apart... Take cams off.. Set engine to 90* ATDC (bolts holes at 12,3,6,9 o'clock) the notches in the cams should be facing each other, timing mark on the ip below the rear housing bolt at 9 o'clock...

When putting back together.. Leave cams loose, start at crank work towards the top making sure to keep the ip in time.. Last things to tighten are the cams with the locking pins in and the gears locked together torque to 80ftlbs tighten tensioner.. Crank by hand a 3 times make sure everything lines back up

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Hexus · **Posted:** Wed May 14, 2014 12:19 pm

This engine is an interference engine. If it was mis-timed then you have likely broken/damaged the rockers and lifters in the top end of the engine.

The entire intake will have to come off and you will have to visually inspect the rockers and lifters to ensure that no damage has taken place before "re-timing" the vehicle.

These engines are designed to fail there, but if you find damage I would inspect the head further to ensure nothing else is damaged below.

To do anything other than my suggestion is to risk further damage and monetary responsibility. If you had a shop do this job for you, I would recommend having them make reparations.

Re-Timing the engine requires some tools. VM.1053, VM.1052, and VM.1085 or their equivalent. If you read the "NOOB GUIDE" Sir Sam provides a link to the service manual, which goes through the entire "re-timing" or "Timing belt" process ad-nauseum.

Good Luck!

Worthing · **Posted:** Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:54 pm

Thanks for the info. I've made some progress. I redid the botched timing belt job with the help of a friend, and I thought everything was fine. The jeep started up much smoother, idled fine, everything seemed ok. Afterwards I started noticing some issues though, starting the engine when cold was a bit of an effort, I had to hold the key in the start position for far longer than should be normal and sometimes white smoke would issue from the tail pipe once started. The throttle also seemed very unresponsive at times, the acceleration was slow when called upon. Now having moved to Idaho Falls, ID, I found a local shop that supposedly has worked on them before. They found that the fuel injection was mistimed, so they re-timed the engine. But I'm still noticing the same problem. Could damaged rockers from my initial botched timing job be causing the unresponsive acceleration and rough ignition/white smoke? I'm feeling like a idiot for trying the timing belt job on my own.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:06 pm

Sorry, but it does sound like you have had piston/valve contact and you should NOT run the engine further to avoid additional damage. With luck, rockers will take care of the problem. However, based on my recent experience, I first would determine if you had had residual pressure in the header tank after an overnight cool down and/or you have been adding coolant. If so, you need a head gasket and ARP studs when replacing the rockers.

If you are certain that there has been no combustion leakage with the HG, you can just install ARP studs. We now know that EVERYONE needs to install ARPs because of the small diameter of the head bolt flanges and the uneven hardness of the aluminum of the head. The reliefs in the head that the head bolt flanges seat on compress in varying amounts across the head, resulting in large variation of head bolt torque over time. Sooner or later, EVERYONE is going to have a leaking HG with OEM bolts.

In our case, we found the passenger side of cyl #3 that was leaking on that side took 85 ft/lbs of torque to break free, while the corresponding bolt on the driver's side took 135 ft/lbs to break free. The ARP studs use washers that are much larger in diameter than the flanges on the OEM bolts and hold the torque much better.

Good luck with bringing your KJ CRD back to life....

DOC

Worthing · **Posted:** Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:20 pm

Thanks for the information, I'm dropping it off at the dealership today. They're going to start by checking the compression. Hopefully this won't drag out too long.

flman · **Posted:** Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:17 pm

Worthing wrote:

Thanks for the info. I've made some progress. I redid the botched timing belt job with the help of a friend, and I thought everything was fine. The jeep started up much smoother, idled fine, everything seemed ok. Afterwards I started noticing some issues though, starting the engine when cold was a bit of an effort, I had to hold the key in the start position for far longer than should be normal and sometimes white smoke would issue from the tail pipe once started. The throttle also seemed very unresponsive at times, the acceleration was slow when called upon. Now having moved to Idaho Falls, ID, I found a local shop that supposedly has worked on them before. They found that the fuel injection was mistimed, so they re-timed the engine. But I'm still noticing the same problem. Could damaged rockers from my initial botched timing job be causing the unresponsive acceleration and rough ignition/white smoke? I'm feeling like a idiot for trying the timing belt job on my own.

Fuel injection timing is not a factor, the FSM says you do not even need to do this, I did not align to high pressure pump on my last timing job and the Jeep runs just fine and has the same fuel mileage and power. From the symptoms you describe, you have some broken rockers for sure, time to pull the valve cover and stop playing games.

Okay, I am ready for the backlash for saying you do not need to align the high pressure pump marks. :jester:

striperman36 · **Posted:** Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:32 pm

I'm in agreement with doc. We took a looonng time making sure, everything on the front end aligned up, I believe everything lines up after 3 full rotations of the crank. We before taking the old timing belt off, marked everything that rotated and if anything was off, jammed the belt where things rotated correctly, and adjusted out alignment back into alignment and tried to align the belt around the out of rotation part.

My suggestion is to not run the engine, check the rockersfor damage, replace what is needed and start over with the timing belt.

The Noob guide, Sir Sam's videos and the 3 vm tools noted actually the 2 cam tools. the crank tool is almost impossible to get right should be sufficient to hold your cams correctly to replace the timing belt.

Short of that, get someone with experience and references to work on the engine.

thermorex · **Posted:** Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:55 pm

flman wrote:

Okay, I am ready for the backlash for saying you do not need to align the high pressure pump marks. :jester:

Geez, you need to time the fuel pump!!!

tedder · **Joined:** Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:19 pm **Posts:** 137

Worthing, I have been through this exact thing. My recommendation is to stay as far away from the stealer as possible. The stealer will cost you more than half the value of the vehicle to fix this and they will take much longer than you thought.

Do what this forum says and you will be back up just take your time. The most important part is the three pins of which the part numbers have been provided. You must have the crank at 90 degrees past top dead and the cams pinned to be successful. If not you will get valve piston interference and the rockers will be damaged. If you keep driving it like it is the next sound you will hear is a ticking sound and then a complete loss of power. This was your rockers biting the dust. Tow truck time.

I failed at my wife's CRD and it was a learning experience. I just did my CRD and it runs like a top so the advice in this forum (did I just say this above) is correct and works.

Oh, I do time the injector pump it's so simple to do why not. But either way it still works.

:2cents:

worth

Worthing · **Posted:** Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:01 pm

Thanks, I'm not going to go with the dealership, theres a mechanic here in town that has experience working with these, he recently retimed the engine for me. Good to hear that others have had trouble like this though. Im going to mention to him alot of what you've all said here, see what he thinks and proceed from there. It's gonna cost more than if I tried myself, but it will be less than the dealership and I'm afraid I'd mess something up again if I tried to do it myself.

Worthing · **Posted:** Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:13 pm

Update: The jeep is safely at the shop, but the problem is still being looked into. When the mechanic test drove the jeep, he said everything sounded fine. I told him about the problems I was having (prolonged time to reach ignition, white smoke upon start-up, general noisiness during idle, black smoke while moving and accelerating and a general lack of power and severely delayed accelerator) and after the second test drive he said some of those problems started showing up. The codes he was reading indicated a problem with the MAF sensor. But since I unplugged this when I put in an AEM cone air filter I didn't think that was much to worry about or an indication of the problem. Is the sole purpose of the MAF really only to assist the EGR? What about determining air/fuel mixtures based on air density? These problems started manifesting themselves after I moved to a different state and gained 4000 ft in elevation. Surely the air density is different now than when I first unplugged the MAF sensor at an elevation of less than 1000 ft and would this affect the vehicle?
PS I'm now near 4700 ft and I also have the GDE Eco tune, don't know if that would affect anything but there it is.

Dennis MacGyver · **Posted:** Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:14 pm

It makes no logical sense to have to time the Injector Pump (IP), if it were important there would be a pin to lock it in place during a belt change procedure and it would be outlined in the factory service manual.

Since this engine runs off a common rail, that rail should have constant pressure from the IP, and only drop in the rail pressure when the ECM tells an injector to open & release fuel, no timing involved in creating the needed fuel pressure.

The important thing to ascertain is that the 2 cam pins are properly seated and the flywheel pin is in place (regardless of what a PITA is is to get it in there correctly.) A clue on the flywheel pin is that there is an indicator (small notch) next to the front crank pulley bolt that should be located at 3 O'clock (from the front side of the engine) when the cam pins are properly seated.

This is the best guide I've found to do this job.
http://colorado4wheel.com/content/KJ_TB.html

Issue after changing the timing belt

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