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Whining sound, power loss, smoke, & metal (injectors?)
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Author:  jwildman16 [ Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Whining sound, power loss, smoke, & metal (injectors?)
Hi all. Got a serious problem with my CRD. It's complicated by the fact that this all happened close to a month ago, the day before I left for my honeymoon in South America. I just got back last night and am hoping I can get my Jeep back in running order. I know it's serious, but I don't know what it is. Here's what happened (hopefully my memory is sufficiently in tact):

I was cruising down the highway at about 60 when I started to hear a loud whining sound. My first impression was that it was something to do with the A/C system, so I shut that off, but there was no change. I started losing a lot of power, so I pulled over and shut it down. I wouldn't say it was missing a cylinder because it wasn't jerky at all; it just lacked power. I opened up the hood and did a visual inspection. I wasn't sure what to look for, but I didn't see any obvious damage, hoses blown off, etc.

I gave it several minutes to cool off and started it up again. No problems doing so, but the whine was still there. My next thought was something to do with the turbo. I wish I had thought to make a recording of the sound, but I really didn't want to run engine longer than needed. The sound increased in pitch significantly with an increase in throttle. I drove a little further and got it off the highway. It was barely able to propel itself and it started smoking a lot - to the point that it could have been on fire for all I knew, except that it was white smoke, no black smoke. It smelled somewhat sweet, maybe plastic-y.

I wasn't about to run it any further, so I shut it down right there. A passerby stopped when he saw all the smoke. We pulled the dipstick and there were some metal specks in the oil. A friend helped tow it the short distance home and then a tow truck brought it to a local shop the next day before I left town. I didn't have time to find an experienced CRD mechanic, so it was brought to a shop where my friend has had work down on his Dodge Cummins diesels.

So the shop has had it for the last few weeks while I've been out of the country. They say it's definitely injectors and that everything else (compression, glow plugs, computer) looks fine. He ran some "BG244k" through to try and clean them, but he says the problem is electrical. He says the #3 and #4 injectors are failing electrically and are dumping way too much fuel in. He says the #2 injector is running at about 80% and the #1 is perfect. He recommends replacing all four at once. He spoke with the dealer and they want just under $1,000 each for new injectors.

A couple other notes: The mechanic says the motor sounds good and that he didn't find any metal in the oil - and that a certain small amount shouldn't be a concern if I had found some.

1. Does his assessment line up with the symptoms I described?
2. Anyone have a recommended source for four new or rebuilt injectors that aren't $1k a piece?
3. Anything he should be aware of when replacing them?
a. I've read several other injector posts and it sounds like the copper washers need to be thoroughly
cleaned for a good seal - Will new injectors come with new washers?
b. It also sounds like new injectors will require a computer tune to fine-tune their settings. Who
does that? How much $ am I looking at for that?
c. Anything else?

Other info:
2005
About 110k miles
New timing belt at ~102k or 104k
No other issues besides the recent installation of an inline thermostat

Thanks for the advice.

My baby left me when I got married, but I want her back and I'm confident we can all live together peacefully. ;)
Author:  flash7210 [ Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whining sound, power loss, smoke, & metal (injectors?)
Did the mechanic check the turbo?

Although its possible for the injectors to be bad that doesnt explain the "whine" or metal in oil.
Turbo is the FIRST place I would have looked with those symptoms.
Metal in oil is BAD!
Author:  Hexus [ Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whining sound, power loss, smoke, & metal (injectors?)
Sounds like the Turbo to me. Have them remove it and check, or just take the intake hose off the front and check for any fore/aft or lateral play. There should be virtually none.

I would check with Keith at GDE first about injectors, as I know he's trying to get rid of his inventory and will treat you very fairly on the price if he still has any.

Next, IDParts has them for $579.

Oregon Fuel injection has them for $379 with $150 core, so you'd have to mail your old ones to them, but yeah.

$1000+ is ridiculous for them.

The dealer would have to re-program the ECU for the flow ratings of the new injectors or Keith could do it if you have his tune for $50 for the updated tune if you already have the GDE tune installed.
Author:  jwildman16 [ Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whining sound, power loss, smoke, & metal (injectors?)
Hexus wrote:
Sounds like the Turbo to me. Have them remove it and check, or just take the intake hose off the front and check for any fore/aft or lateral play. There should be virtually none.

I would check with Keith at GDE first about injectors, as I know he's trying to get rid of his inventory and will treat you very fairly on the price if he still has any.

Next, IDParts has them for $579.

Oregon Fuel injection has them for $379 with $150 core, so you'd have to mail your old ones to them, but yeah.

$1000+ is ridiculous for them.

The dealer would have to re-program the ECU for the flow ratings of the new injectors or Keith could do it if you have his tune for $50 for the updated tune if you already have the GDE tune installed.

Yes, he did say he checked the turbo and found no play in it. He scoped in there, too, and saw nothing wrong with the vanes.

Thanks for the suggestions. Sounds like Oregon Fuel Injection is the way to go unless GDE has a better option. I'll give them a call and see what I can find out. I don't already have the GDE tune, but maybe this will be my excuse to do so.
Author:  diesel_guy86 [ Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whining sound, power loss, smoke, & metal (injectors?)
Really sounds like turbo to me, with the metal being either pieces of the turbo bushing, or housing from the stuck piston ring seal on the turbine. Reason he didn't see any metal is because it settled from sitting. Did he drain the pan to check?

Stuck or failing injectors smoke black on a warm engine. Oil is white.
Author:  MRausch82 [ Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Whining sound, power loss, smoke, & metal (injectors?)
The "sweet" smell is what gets me. It could be a head gasket, but I don't think so in this case. It could be unburnt fuel. If there is a LOT of unburnt fuel, you can get white smoke, but that is usually due to low compression. Black smoke is dumping too much fuel. I agree with the others, the noise and symptoms certainly sound like a bad turbo to me. I think I'd get a second opinion. While there have been some issues with injectors, this does not sound like a typical failure mode. I had one customer spend a lot on injectors due to a dealer assuring him that it would cure his issues, and it did not. They said "oh well" and he was stuck with thousands of dollars of useless and pointless repairs. YMMV. :2cents:
Author:  jwildman16 [ Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Whining sound, power loss, smoke, & metal (injectors?)
MRausch82 wrote:
The "sweet" smell is what gets me. It could be a head gasket, but I don't think so in this case. It could be unburnt fuel. If there is a LOT of unburnt fuel, you can get white smoke, but that is usually due to low compression. Black smoke is dumping too much fuel. I agree with the others, the noise and symptoms certainly sound like a bad turbo to me. I think I'd get a second opinion. While there have been some issues with injectors, this does not sound like a typical failure mode. I had one customer spend a lot on injectors due to a dealer assuring him that it would cure his issues, and it did not. They said "oh well" and he was stuck with thousands of dollars of useless and pointless repairs. YMMV. :2cents:

Thanks - I really appreciate the help. I'll ask him to pull the oil pan and look for metal that has settled. Other than that, what should he be looking for to diagnose a failed turbo?

Might it be injectors AND the turbo or would that be really weird?
Author:  Drewd [ Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whining sound, power loss, smoke, & metal (injectors?)
I'd check the turbo myself...very easy to do yourself. I don't think that its an injector issue. You may wish to pull an oil sample to check for antifreeze and elevated wear metals.
Author:  jwildman16 [ Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whining sound, power loss, smoke, & metal (injectors?)
Drewd wrote:
I'd check the turbo myself...very easy to do yourself. I don't think that its an injector issue. You may wish to pull an oil sample to check for antifreeze and elevated wear metals.
OK. Draining some oil and checking it is easy enough. I wouldn't know what I'd be looking for in checking the turbo. He said that's the first place he looked and didn't find anything wrong with it.
Author:  Drewd [ Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Whining sound, power loss, smoke, & metal (injectors?)
jwildman16 wrote:
Drewd wrote:
I'd check the turbo myself...very easy to do yourself. I don't think that its an injector issue. You may wish to pull an oil sample to check for antifreeze and elevated wear metals.
OK. Draining some oil and checking it is easy enough. I wouldn't know what I'd be looking for in checking the turbo. He said that's the first place he looked and didn't find anything wrong with it.


WHO DID YOUR TIMIMG BELT AT 100k?

Please see if Sir Sam can drove down to look at it for you; he live in Ft Collins and is a CRD expert and worked on mine twice!
Author:  jwildman16 [ Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Whining sound, power loss, smoke, & metal (injectors?)
Drewd wrote:
jwildman16 wrote:
Drewd wrote:
I'd check the turbo myself...very easy to do yourself. I don't think that its an injector issue. You may wish to pull an oil sample to check for antifreeze and elevated wear metals.
OK. Draining some oil and checking it is easy enough. I wouldn't know what I'd be looking for in checking the turbo. He said that's the first place he looked and didn't find anything wrong with it.


WHO DID YOUR TIMIMG BELT AT 100k?

Please see if Sir Sam can drove down to look at it for you; he live in Ft Collins and is a CRD expert and worked on mine twice!
Sir Sam himself did the timing belt job, so that's an unlikely source of the problem. Of course, it's possible he made a mistake, but yeah, unlikely. He knows what he's doing.
Author:  Drewd [ Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whining sound, power loss, smoke, & metal (injectors?)
Please read this link as it sounds identical to your issue http://www.aet-turbos.co.uk/blog/story/ ... -spot-them

This video shows how to check turbo for play (axial/radial) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOKxZ08CVxk You can check it while in vehicle and of course it should be checked when cold :')
Author:  WolverineFW [ Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whining sound, power loss, smoke, & metal (injectors?)
How did he test your injectors? I would have them tested by a Bosch certified fuel injection shop that will give you a print out of their condition before you go buying new injectors or a turbo.
Author:  jwildman16 [ Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whining sound, power loss, smoke, & metal (injectors?)
WolverineFW wrote:
How did he test your injectors? I would have them tested by a Bosch certified fuel injection shop that will give you a print out of their condition before you go buying new injectors or a turbo.
He just tested them electrically and said two of them were registering a couple ohms resistance below spec.
Author:  WolverineFW [ Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whining sound, power loss, smoke, & metal (injectors?)
jwildman16 wrote:
WolverineFW wrote:
How did he test your injectors? I would have them tested by a Bosch certified fuel injection shop that will give you a print out of their condition before you go buying new injectors or a turbo.
He just tested them electrically and said two of them were registering a couple ohms resistance below spec.


Get them tested at a Bosch certified injector shop. They will test them mechanically and electrically and give you a whole printout on the performance of each injector.
Author:  Drewd [ Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Whining sound, power loss, smoke, & metal (injectors?)
What is status of your repair? Would like to know what was done and if it fixed the problem. Thanks!
Author:  jwildman16 [ Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Whining sound, power loss, smoke, & metal (injectors?)
Drewd wrote:
What is status of your repair? Would like to know what was done and if it fixed the problem. Thanks!
I located information on the forums here for a mechanic in the area named Billy. He said he's been a master tech for 10 years and drives a CRD Liberty himself. I'm hoping to get the Jeep over to his garage tomorrow so he can take a look at it. I'll provide an update after I'm able to do that. I don't want to pay for a tow truck, so I'm hoping a friend or family can help me pull it the 6.5 miles over there.
Author:  RockyMountainYote [ Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whining sound, power loss, smoke, & metal (injectors?)
The turbocharger is smoked. We got a used one coming along with some new Mishimoto intercooler hoses! Going to clean the metal out of the intercooler and exhaust and get her back on the road stat :) This is the cleanest CRD I've seen, keep taking good care of her. I don't believe there's anything wrong with the injectors, we'll see once the new turbo is in. Its too risky to start this thing with the exhaust wheel bouncing around the housing, sounds terrifying :shock:
Author:  geordi [ Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whining sound, power loss, smoke, & metal (injectors?)
Surprise surprise... The forum had the right information again and a know-it-all "mekkanik" didn't. :dizzy: Will wonders never cease?
Author:  diesel_guy86 [ Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Whining sound, power loss, smoke, & metal (injectors?)
Really makes you wonder how some people call themselves mechanics...
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