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HELP! Is my motor worth fixing? - update 1/24/2015
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Author:  Steevo [ Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:  HELP! Is my motor worth fixing? - update 1/24/2015
Hi guys,

I apologize in advance for the length of the novel you will are hopefully about to read.

I have been reading back through this board since last year when I decided I wanted to pursue buying a KJ CRD as a little brother to my pair of diesel CJ10. I spent several months looking for one and found a 2006 in pristine mechanical condition and showroom cosmetic condition for $8k at a dealer (122k miles). It had been dealer maintained, all recalls performed, and a timing belt at 99k.

I bought it in January, cleaned the MAP, unplugged my MAF, and started saving for a GDE tune. Fast forward to last week at 131k...

My idle got a little rough and smoking lightly while driving 45 miles home from the weekend activities. I made it home just fine and checked all my fluids (everything was fine). No check engine codes other than the MAF code. I made an appointment with the dealer to have the motor checked out (under warranty) but 10 miles down the road the motor started knocking and I ended up having it towed in (Galeana in Columbia SC, who are on the recommended service list here).

When cold, the motor does not knock. As the mechanic test drove it around the lot it began knocking consistently based on RPMs. They could not find anything wrong with fuel delivery and didn't want to tear open the head just yet so I authorized the removal of the oil pan. No damage was visible there, though a single screw about the size of a computer case screw was floating at the bottom of the sump.

The warranty turned out to be a joke so I am going to tow her home next week and tear into the motor myself. Any suggestions on where to start?

TL;DR:

- 131K 2006
- Knocks when above idle
- Timing job done at 99k
- Light smoke under load
- Idles perfectly after cold start with no strange noises coming from the head

I'm pulling my hair out wondering if I should just strip the motor and look for a worn wrist pin or start with something less severe like a bad injector.
Author:  Jay ne Ohio [ Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: HELP! Is my motor worth fixing?
Is it showing any codes? Could be the turbo, injector, stuck egr valve, ect.

Possibly a broken rocker. The only way to examine is to remove timing belt and then the overhead cams. Here is a picture of a bad rocker from my Jeep at 123K:

Image


I also had to remove the head to clean off carbon buildup:

Image

I've put 10k miles on it since then and it is probably the best running Jeep I own. I have 4 crd's now.
Author:  Steevo [ Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: HELP! Is my motor worth fixing?
What symptoms had you encountered that led you to the rocker? Had you done a timing job? Could a CRD idle fine with a bad rocker?

The only code present when I left it at the shop was a Mass Air Flow sensor error, which I have had since the thing was unplugged.
Author:  racertracer [ Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: HELP! Is my motor worth fixing?
Sound clip of the noise would good.

On another vehicle, I once had a chip of metal floating around the sump pump that made a racket, but any metal in there is not good. A micro size screw in the CRD motor sounds like it may have come from an exterior source.
Author:  Steevo [ Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: HELP! Is my motor worth fixing?
I will be recording a 1080p video once I tow it home.
Author:  flman [ Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: HELP! Is my motor worth fixing?
Smoking, low power, injection problem?
Author:  Jay ne Ohio [ Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: HELP! Is my motor worth fixing?
Steevo wrote:
What symptoms had you encountered that led you to the rocker? Had you done a timing job? Could a CRD idle fine with a bad rocker?

The only code present when I left it at the shop was a Mass Air Flow sensor error, which I have had since the thing was unplugged.


The Jeep with the bad rockers (there were two) would start and idle fine but would smoke and run rough with low power when I applied throttle. I think it was showing one code (cyl #1 misfire).

The first thing I did was a timing belt change, because I suspected that it had skipped a tooth. Everything was lined up and that did not fix it. I also checked the EGR because I thought it might be stuck open. Also checked the FCV to see if it was stuck shut. I then swapped turbos. Next, I swapped injectors and the problem stayed with cylinder #1. That is when I opened the whole thing up and found the broken rockers. When I checked to see if the valves were sticking, I must have broke some carbon loose (see picture above) and the engine would not turn over when cyl #1 came to TDC. I then removed the head and found the carbon deposits. Cleaned everything up, new head gasket, all new rockers, new timing belt, timing belt idlers and put it back together. Runs great now.

So start with the easy stuff: smoke indicates poor combustion: lack of air(turbo, FCV, EGR), poor fuel spray pattern(bad injector), poor compression(rocker, rings, hole in piston). Knocking can be caused by incorrect timing, dead cylinder, or it can be mechanical (bad rod bearing, dropped valve, ect).

Good luck and let us know what you find.
Author:  Steevo [ Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: HELP! Is my motor worth fixing?
Hey guys, I finally got the Jeep home and recorded a video of the idle. I need an extra set of hands to rev it, so that will come later.

Liberty CRD idle recording: http://youtu.be/jymiHSfe-wA

There is no smoke at idle, and aside from being a little louder than I remember it really doesn't sound too bad. If I throttle up it runs a little bit rough but did not knock in the few minutes I had it running to get up and down from the flatbed that brought it home.
Author:  LMWatBullRun [ Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: HELP! Is my motor worth fixing?
Steevo wrote:
Hey guys, I finally got the Jeep home and recorded a video of the idle. I need an extra set of hands to rev it, so that will come later.

Liberty CRD idle recording: http://youtu.be/jymiHSfe-wA

There is no smoke at idle, and aside from being a little louder than I remember it really doesn't sound too bad. If I throttle up it runs a little bit rough but did not knock in the few minutes I had it running to get up and down from the flatbed that brought it home.


I would start with rockers. Lots go bad around that mileage.
Author:  Steevo [ Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: HELP! Is my motor worth fixing?
Hey guys,

I have been swamped lately between work and my other Jeeps, but I finally got my timing cover off to inspect the belt. Here is what I found.

I have never, ever worked on a motor with a timing belt so this is all new to me. To my completely uneducated eye it looks like the pulleys are off from eachother by one tooth, but I don't know if they are even supposed to be aligned based on the 3 holes in the center of the pulleys. I am reading up on timing jobs but hope you guys might see something that my amateur eyes are missing.

I will be popping the valve cover off next to inspect the rockers.

Click for hi-res view of the reference marks made by the tech who did the timing belt job
Image

Passenger side:
Image

Driver side:
Image

Image
Author:  gmctd [ Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: HELP! Is my motor worth fixing? - update 11/29/14 pics
Could be deteriorated front motor mounts, since you do not indicate missing\bucking\hesitation - some begin to fail and make knocking sounds after a while, some don't - timing case looks very clean and pristine, no oil leaks which would deteriorate belt, but likely ready for timing belt and water pump, which will need replacing while you've got everything apart
Author:  Steevo [ Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: HELP! Is my motor worth fixing? - update 11/29/14 pics
Motor mounts could very well be deteriorated, but I don't think that is the issue. When I began having issues the motor was skipping and smoking; after it came back from the shop (with no work actually done) it will run smoothly at idle but as soon as it begins to warm up the skipping/smoke come back.

I am planning to replace the belt/pulleys/water pump while I'm in there, as well as clean/service the injectors.
Author:  papaindigo [ Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: HELP! Is my motor worth fixing? - update 11/29/14 pics
From what I can see from picture #1 someone marked the water pump (why I don't know as it has less than zero to do with timing); both cam gears; and the CP3 pulley PLUS the adjacent housings. Assuming that someone actually check the timing (e.g. pinned both cams and the flywheel) and marked things correctly I'll offer the following:
a. your belt tension is fine based on the tensioner position and I don't see any noticeable slack "runs" in the belt between "teethed" things
b. as noted the WP marks don't mean anything
c. the CP3 marks don't mean anything as they only line up every 3 revolutions
d. the 9 and 3 o'clock bolts and the 3 o'clock dimple on the crank are not horizontal. If you use the Photoshop Elements align tool the image needs to be rotated slightly clockwise to get those horizontal
e. the marks on the 2 cams and their adjacent housings do not align
Combining d and e I suspect if you continued to rotate the engine until the bolts and dimple in d were horizontal that the left cam would align with the marks and the right one would not. Bottom line is I'll bet a decent 6 pack that the intake (I think that's the right cam) it out 1 tooth. I also supect that if you got the engine to this position that the flywheel pin and left cam pin would go in but the right cam pin would not.

This would certainly explain you problem. As to whether the belt was properly installed or jumped and whether or not you have rocker damage I lack the expertise to offer an opinion. If it was mine absent a better opinion I'd want to put eyeballs on the rockers.

PS my bet is they did not pull the oil pan as it's my understanding that this involves lifting the engine.
Author:  gmctd [ Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: HELP! Is my motor worth fixing? - update 11/29/14 pics
I agree - further, the magic-markings likely indicate the exact rotational position all the 'pulleys' were at during some previous service incident, and were placed\checked for identical positioning when completing the job - which is how I would do it when fixing the critical rotational positions with locking clamps prior to removing the tensioner and belt

'Nuther words, without having specifically designed tooling to accomplish the task
Author:  Steevo [ Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: HELP! Is my motor worth fixing? - update 11/29/14 pics
Thanks for the input guys. I will try inserting the pins and see if they yield any information.

The shop did drop the oil pan (and lift the engine). I know this for a fact because they called me to come look at the bottom end while it was open; otherwise I would not have believed they dropped it.
Author:  papaindigo [ Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: HELP! Is my motor worth fixing? - update 11/29/14 pics
Amazing - rather than pull the fan and fan shroud; undo 2 cam pin cover bolts; check timing on a rough knocking engine (elapsed time say 30 minutes at most) they decided to lift the engine and drop the pan to avoid pulling the head even though to replace rockers that would be damaged if the engine jumped or was out of time does not require pulling the head. For what it's worth geordi is just down the road and has done rockers IIRC.
Author:  Steevo [ Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: HELP! Is my motor worth fixing? - update 11/29/14 pics
Amazing indeed. I was told by the shop's head tech that one of their mechanics was certified on the VM motors and had rebuilt half a dozen of them in addition to lots of timing belt jobs. I was expecting that he would know what he was doing!
Author:  Mike92104 [ Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: HELP! Is my motor worth fixing? - update 11/29/14 pics
Regarding the small screw in the oil pan, the reluctor ring for the crank position sensor using some very tiny screws to hold it on the crank. I'm no sure how my info relates to your problem, but it's a possible source for that screw. Do you have a pic of it?
Author:  Steevo [ Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: HELP! Is my motor worth fixing? - update 11/29/14 pics
Image

It was black, but looked almost exactly like a computer case screw. Perhaps a little bit longer.
Author:  gmctd [ Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: HELP! Is my motor worth fixing? - update 11/29/14 pics
I haven't actually seen the fasteners that hold the oil-pickup tube in place, but that could be one
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