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 Post subject: Re: Retiming
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:58 am 
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Regarding Geordi's reference to exhaust gas in the coolant, we tried several methods of checking for this. It included a Snap-On sold fluid style and a CO probe exhaust gas analyzer. We were really looking for positive confirmation before tearing the whole thing apart. (I had just done the TB less than 10K ago.)

However, with the relatively small leak that was present at the time, no method showed any hint of exhaust gas in the coolant. Also, if we had not been towing 4000 lbs on the highway, I do not think we would have noticed at that point. However, the overflow section of the header tank filled up.

DOC

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 Post subject: Re: Retiming
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:20 pm 
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Doc, you certainly had a head gasket leak, and I do think that even though you weren't able to detect the exhaust gasses *at the time* that it would be getting steadily worse. How long that timeline may have been... I have no idea. It is also possible that what we saw on the gasket - that burn mark - was only caused by the excessive combustion pressures of towing, and it could have driven many tens of thousands of miles after that before losing any coolant.

Then again... When my second engine started tapping and I tore it down trying to find the problem... I distinctly remember cylinders 1 and 2 being dry, cylinder #3 being wet, and cylinder #4 being possibly wet. That engine was used, and I have no idea if the head had ever been off - I suspect not, so there is a good chance that I had the same problem on that engine: The bolts weren't properly tight around #3 on the exhaust side.

That engine never lost any coolant and I never had the alarm go off. I cannot say whether the overflow bottle was ever wet, but the engine drew it back in. This IS how the coolant system is supposed to work however. Just having water in the overflow doesn't indicate anything UNLESS it continues pumping water OUT.

There is a precedent on car forums for people to be hyper-sensitive to certain problems. I'm just as guilty of this as anyone. But we have to remember what normal operation can be - it is a wide range because everyone has different driving circumstances. I have had 3 different Ford vehicles that I know for certain would put water into the overflow every time they were driven. The other cars I've had may have done the same thing, but I cannot say for certain on them. I really only observed the Fords b/c I was dealing with other issues at the time. BUT - This is NORMAL OPERATION for those cooling systems.

The overflow is an expansion tank, for when the system is fully-topped-up on water, but hot water expands as it heats up. Since you don't want excessive pressure (steam boilers used to explode b/c of this) there has to be a pressure relief and someplace for it to go. So it pushes past 17lbs of spring on the cap and goes into the overflow. When the engine cools, the water contracts and causes a vacuum - Either that space will be filled with air or water. Since we don't want air in the system, there is a smaller spring and cap on the radiator cap that lets the water get sucked back in.

Think about that radiator cap. Both those springs and the cap itself... Are like $7. How reliable do you think that can be? Other members have said they tested (I don't know how) MULTIPLE caps in a store, and only found 1 good one out of at least 7-10 tested.

Keith has also stated that between 8-10 lbs of pressure in the coolant system is NORMAL and I would add that unless the coolant alarm is sounding... You aren't actually losing the coolant if it is in the overflow section.

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 Post subject: Re: Retiming
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:02 pm 
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Hey all, wanted to thank all of you for your help and impute all of the advise is appreciated and helpful as well. I understand the importance of doing the ARP studs now and that it could potentially stop/prevent a head gasket leak particularly this far into the engine. However, not going to replace the TTY bolts.

We would just like to check/confirm that the torque on the head bolts in their current position (without removing the head) are at or near their required torque just for the peace of mind. Anyone know the pattern/sequence and torque required, or a link for that? The idea would be to start at half of the required torque following the required sequence all the way around working our way up in small increments to about ten pounds short and leave it as is. Of course hoping that none of the TTY bolts budge....(wishful thinking) we will see about that later.

A timing belt kit along with a set of 4 etecnos were purchased about six months ago however never installed.

Yesterday the complete set of 16 rockers/lifters, 4 injector kit, intake gasket, turbo inlet hose, and an additional set of 4 etecnos glow plugs were ordered. The previously ordered plugs could possibly be from a bad batch.ID Parts said they would refund the old ones once received (already) shipped their way, and I also have a tracking number meaning the parts are already on the way. The level of service provided to me by ID Parts is extraordinary, and I value their commitment in providing quality parts/service to the Jeep CRD community.

Still cleaning lots of parts, organizing etc... for the reassembly.

Thank you Geordi I will have your number close by in case I get stuck, pretty sure that's expected.

For anyone that is considering undertaking this job, careful consideration must be taken. This is an enormous undertaking, and should not be underestimated. Our mechanical team consist of four adults. Me, my dad, younger brother ( who is the one really doing all the work, poor kid), and my uncle (Master ASE tech). Don't forget this site. Three shade tree mechanic's and a real one.

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 Post subject: Re: Retiming
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:52 pm 
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Several people have tried to retorque the OEM bolts, without success. Perhaps you missed the reason I have already explained. Here is more detail. The flanges on the OEM bolts sink into the surface of the head in an inconsistent manner, distorting the material and causing varying amounts of torque loss. Once this occurs, tightening a bolt which has lost torque due to this only results in further "sinking" and subsequent torque loss. This has also resulted in cracking of the head on the outboard edges.

The ARPs have a larger diameter washer than the integral flange on the OEMs, which spreads the load over a larger area of aluminum. This "flattens" the "raised ridge" and results in more stable torque over time.

Additionally, the TTY bolts have proven wildly inconsistent. At one extreme, people have crushed their head and cracked it, using the complex OEM TTY procedure. At the other, they have snapped the bolts off. TTY bolts are specifically intended to be only used once.

You are proposing an approach that we already know from experience will result in your head gasket leaking in the future.

If you are replacing rockers now and you are confident that your HG is not currently leaking, ARPs will only add $400 to the total cost of the job and ensure lasting success as long as you do the TB correctly. Compare that to all this work all over again, plus 10 hours and a minimum of another $250 in parts when yor HG leaks. You are replacing the water pump, right?

DOC

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 Post subject: Re: Retiming
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:30 pm 
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Everything Doc just said, times two.

I understand better than most about trying to save money and time. HOWEVER - that approach is called "tripping over dollars to pick up pennies" and it ended up with my own total bill of parts and repairs being $16,000 over my ownership of my CRD, NOT COUNTING the second engine replacement that was the reason I finally had enough.

Bear in mind, except for replacing the engine and transmission and transfer cases (separate failures) at a shop because I did not feel capable or have the equipment... I was doing all the labor myself. About $4,000 was just in parts for work I did myself, quite a bit of it twice.

You will not be successful doing anything with the TTY bolts other than removing them. One of the primary problems with them: There is NOT a factory torque spec for final torque - they are supposed to "yield" on installation, right? Instead, the process is to bring the bolts to some pre-torque number (which I believe is 80 lb-ft, but I am not certain) and then you are supposed to turn each bolt by 75 degrees... Because 90 degrees was too easy for the factory designers) and then turn some of the bolts 115 degrees, and then all of them again by another 75 degrees.

So what is the final torque? The correct answer: Who the F knows. HOWEVER - what we do know is that bolts directly bordering the cylinders should all have the same torque, and that should be 130 lb-ft IF you are using ARP studs, and the bolts on the outer edges of the head should be set to 120 or 125 lb-ft. Doc has already mentioned that we discovered his bolts directly bordering cylinder #3 would break loose at 135 lb-ft on the intake side, HOWEVER the exhaust side broke loose at only 85. This is a serious problem and re-torquing the same cheap bolt WILL NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

TTY bolts have unstable metallurgy so that they CAN yield. Once (if) that happens, any further application of torque will cause them to exceed their rating and BREAK. You cannot increase torque on a TTY once it has reached that yield point.

I think you are asking for doing this job again (with all the same parts AGAIN needing to be bought because the belt is a one-time-use component as well - only the rockers wouldn't need to be replaced again) if you don't replace with studs now... But you would be better served by just leaving the factory bolts UNTOUCHED if you aren't going to replace them with ARP studs.

If you do decide to replace them with the studs, the pattern doesn't matter: You do each bolt one at a time, all the others remain fully clamped until you get to them. Remove just ONE bolt, insert the stud with the lubed washer and nut already on it (and flush with the top of the stud) and finger-tight the stud with a hex key, then torque the nut to either 130 or 125 depending on location: Edge studs get 125, cylinder studs in the two center rows get 130. The nut should end up with about 2 threads showing above the top.

You don't want to do this job a second time, trust me. It sucks enough doing it once. At the mileage this vehicle has, you are OVERDUE for a head gasket leak based on the rest of the members here. Since you haven't had one, clamp the gasket even tighter with the studs and drive on... Or start planning to do this entire job again.

You know I'm speaking from experience here. Trust me on that one.

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 Post subject: Re: Retiming
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:51 am 
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DOC4444 yes, the water pump is included within the timing belt kit from ID Parts (I think the brand is Graf) feels real solid along with the idlers and a tensioner. According to the tracking # all the parts should be in this Saturday. I'm going to have my dad read through this thread again carefully to see if he has a different opinion. We would need to make a decision here quickly. I appreciate the information provided really don't want to have to do this all over again, although my CRD's timing belt is coming up shortly.

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 Post subject: Re: Retiming
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:10 pm 
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Can any of you (Geordi, DOC4444) please direct me to where the best place to buy the ARP studs is. Part number(s), store, phone #, website, quantity, price, etc... What ever else I missing?

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 Post subject: Re: Retiming
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:09 pm 
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IDparts sells them (isn't that convenient?) but they might be a bit hard to locate on the site. I'm not certain if he has them linked in to the CRD stuff yet.

Forget that - I just looked, and IDparts has them listed, for the nearly exact same price as from Summit Racing. I like Summit, but I think it is better that we support the vendors that directly support us. My money would go to Corey in this case, and you KNOW he will take good care of you. $360 is a great price, I think it might actually be a few bucks cheaper than Summit, now that I think about it.

Everything comes in the kit, you will get 2 boxes of the kit for the ALH Jetta (it is the same bolts, we just need 18 of them instead of 10, so you will have 2 left over) and washers, nuts, and the all-important lube for your Italian Mistress' pleasure. Lube the threads on the nut and the narrow threads of the stud (where the nut goes) and on the mating faces of the nut and both top and bottom of the washer. You don't need to be gloppy with it (I use a Q-tip to apply) but you want a decent silver pasting. DO NOT LUBE THE WIDE THREADS that go into the block.

Just to be clear: USE NO LUBE ON THE BOTTOM OF THE STUDS. You want those threads exactly as they are, going deep into the block. They don't need any help at all, and you only need to tighten it until the washer/nut (flush with the top of the stud) contacts the recess of the head. Finger tight, then start on the torque of the nut. Use a GOOD click torque wrench, and you will need a BIG one. Home Depot has the one I use, it was like $80 and is a 29 inch monster that clicks in either direction. Set it for either 130 (center rows) or 120, and go to town.

The stud nuts will be a 14mm 12-point socket. If you don't have one of those, Home Depot sells that as well, and you will want a 1/2" NON WOBBLE extension bar set too. Don't get the deep-core socket, it won't fit on the wrench for the back nuts under the windshield header.

See, I've done this a couple times...

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 Post subject: Re: Retiming
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:10 pm 
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http://idparts.com/catalog/product_info ... ts_id=4044

Very good price. IIRC you will have 2 left over and flman might want to buy them.

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 Post subject: Re: Retiming
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:52 pm 
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To answer Taroo's question, I have to say, yes. With the mounting number of head gasket leaks around the 130K mark, it seems to only make sense to make ARPs part of the 100K service. It seems there is a low likelihood of getting to 200 K without a HG leak without studs.

DOC

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 Post subject: Re: Retiming
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:37 am 
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Thank you all for your impute/help. Most of the head bolts were in the 160-130 lb. range only one on the outside was at 120. Ill share more on that if someone points me in the right direction. One of the head bolts near the firewall rounded with 160lb. So we wound up leaving it as is. My dads jeep has all new rollers/ lifters, etecnos, gaskets, t- belt, idlers, tensioner, Graf water pump, etc... Yesterday evening she fired up!!! Only for two short moments 30sec or so, with the timing belt exposed. Still have to button everything back up. Still allot of stuff left to do but wanted to give an update.

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 Post subject: Re: Retiming
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:22 pm 
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At least it is running again! Check the "sticky" threads at the top of the page, that is where the research project thread is.

Thanks for your data!


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 Post subject: Re: Retiming
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:04 pm 
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Yesterday evening everything was buttoned up and went out for a first drive. Struggled to get out if the driveway, almost no power and a laundry list of codes. Found the TCM plug not plugged in completely, intercooler couplers off a little, etc... Finished that and then it started missing with cylinder 1, lots of black smoke out the tail pipe, and no power. Tinkered with it finally struggled to even start back up. Now today won't even fire up. Current codes are p1614, p0340, p0513.

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 Post subject: Re: Retiming
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:49 pm 
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Codes:

P0340-CAMSHAFT POSITION SENSOR CIRCUIT MISSING SIGNAL PLAUSIBILITY.
P0340-CAMSHAFT POSITION SENSOR CIRCUIT MISSING SIGNAL.
P0340-CAMSHAFT POSITION SENSOR CIRCUIT.

P0513-INVALID SKIM KEY .
P0513-SKIM SYSTEM INVALID KEY CODE RECEIVED
P0513-SKIM SYSTEM READ ACCESS TO EEPROM FAILURE.
P0513-SKIM SYSTEM WRITE ACCESS TOEEPROM FAILURE.
P0513-SKIM SYSTEM WRITE ACCESS TO EEPROM FAILURE.

There is no 1614 code, but the 16xx series all suggest PCM, so I'd figure that that and the 0513 are both because it is pissed that you had the battery connected / disconnected / connected again and at some point did it with the harnesses unplugged. This is why I don't unplug the computers at all unless the battery is out.

The camshaft position sensor is the one on the back of the exhaust cam, and it might not be seated fully on the sensor plug. That would certainly make the engine run like crap because it wouldn't know where the pistons were, to know when to inject fuel.

It is also possible that you knocked one of the rockers off when putting the cover back on - did it run normally before you reassembled everything other than the timing belt? If it did, then this suggests to be just a loose connection still. Double check everything, clear all the codes, and give it another go. You cannot damage anything mechanically by any electronic glitching, all the mechanicals are controlled by the timing belt.

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 Post subject: Re: Retiming
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:57 pm 
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Geordi

Is there a way to test the camshaft position sensor?

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 Post subject: Re: Retiming
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:00 pm 
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Don't know if it can be tested but it's not pricey. PN 05140332AA or Bosch 0281002667 also apparently Standard Motor Products PC644 or Airtex 5S7046. Shopping around you can get it for under $50.

In contrast the crankshaft position sensor can be tested for the not uncommon failure mode which is due to heat. Pull it; hook up volt/ohm meter; apply heat; if resistance goes nuts it's bad.

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 Post subject: Re: Retiming
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:28 pm 
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Thank you Papaindigo for the info. wasn't sure if there was a way to test the camshaft sensor (was hoping there would be), probably just pull the one from my jeep in the morning and try it on my dads jeep. If its that sensor then we will buy it.

Depending on what happens from there. We will check the crankshaft sensor, now there's a plan B if it ain't the camshaft sensor. Will update after the attempt. Thanks again

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 Post subject: Re: Retiming
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:57 am 
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Just swapped the camshaft sensor. My dads CRD still struggles to start, fires but doesn't start, knocks, smokes, etc. codes are p1614, p0340, p0513, and u0002. Somewhat frustrated at this point.

The injectors were not numbered when removed or placed in any particular order. Could this be a possible cause.

Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Retiming
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 1:31 pm 
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Injector swap won't matter, considering they are tested good. The computer is programmed for each injector though, this as I know is for better efficiency, so the truck would have maybe 1-3% worse mileage, but it should run fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Retiming
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:09 pm 
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Found this on another list on your DTCs,

U0002 - Can C Bus off Performance
One possibility is wiring problem in the ABS system or Anti-lock brake module:
Possible Causes
(D65) Can C Bus (+) Circuit Shorted To Ground
(D64) Can C Bus (-) Circuit Shorted To Ground
(D65) Can C Bus (+) Circuit Shorted To Voltage
(D64) Can C Bus (-) Circuit Shorted To Voltage
(D65) Can C Bus (+) Circuit Shorted To (D64) Can C Bus (-) Circuit
Antilock Brake Module
Powertrain Control Module
Shifter Lever Assembly (Nag1 Only)
Transmission Control Module (Nag1 Only)
Steering Control Module
Front Control Module

P1614 - NATS (anti-theft system) malfunction
From what I've seen, the light should only remain on for about a minute when initiating a lock and closing all doors.

Try using the original factory key. Both P1610 and P1614 indicate a NATS (anti-theft system) malfunction, yet P1610 is a resulting DTC from the "LOCK MODE" condition which is set for various NATS malfunctions or an improper key being used. It prevents the car from starting (for some period of time, even if the key issue is rectified). P1614 merely indicates an issue with the anti-theft system because the IMMU cannot receive the key ID signal.

To reset a NATS lock mode, a proper key must be cycled three times again to get the car to start.

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