LOST JEEPS
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Retiming
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=79769		 Page 3 of 5
Author:  geordi [ Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
These are the same codes from before too - Have you cleared the earlier codes and they re-occurred, or are these still the original codes?

Battery issues would cause codes like this too, and they will not clear on their own. They have to be cleared by a scanner, possibly several times in a row if they don't want to clear immediately.
Author:  Tony P. [ Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Thermorex thanks for clarifying the injector question.

WWDiesel was utilizing a flip key/ conversion however since your post went over and found my dad's second original key and attempted as instructed. No more codes via GDE scan tool appear.

Geordi the codes were previously cleared and reappeared after use with the flip key. However, after using the original key no codes appear.

Battery is one or two years old should be good, turns the the engine pretty strong, and we have been trickle charging it as well.

Still engine fires, doesn't start, and heavy smoke out the tail pipe while attempting to start.
Author:  Tony P. [ Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Hello to all again.

Started the timing belt cover disassembly this evening. The timing appears to be about two or three teeth off. Not exactly sure what or how that happened think Ill prolly know a little better tomorrow.
Author:  geordi [ Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
That isn't good. More than 1 tooth and you are risking the rockers again. I don't know how that could have happened, but you will need to completely take the top off again if it is more than one tooth out, the cams could have easily broken some of the rockers again.
Author:  RTTT265 [ Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Cam gears slipped a little? Im worried about all my bolts now, specially behind the fan :shock:
Author:  Tony P. [ Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Took the front timing belt cover off, placed the cam pins in and couldn't place the crank pin in. Removed the belt and retimed. BAM... it fired up. Geordi unfortunately you are correct, I need to remove the top end again. It's missing and appears to have a crushed rocker(s) again.
Author:  geordi [ Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Dang, bummer. How far out was it?

Not to rub salt in the wound... But I'm in Boca Raton these days...
I have a widget that might just extract that one stuck and rounded head bolt if you are game to try that too when you get back in there.

Best of luck (again) if you decide to try it again yourself, at least you are getting experienced at pulling it apart, right? :banghead: :5SHOTS:
Author:  RTTT265 [ Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
When replacing my head bolts one of them just rounded, I used what I thought was a cheap nasty stuck bolt remover socket from a parts store, to my surprise it came straight off, ill put up a pick if you like.
Author:  greiswig [ Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Makes me wonder if all of us should use some Loctite sleeve retainer on the cam gears. Stupid not to have a keyway on those cams.

What did you torque your cam gears to? Sure sorry for your trouble!
Author:  GreenDieselEngineering [ Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
80 ftlb for cam gear bolt.
Author:  greiswig [ Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
GreenDieselEngineering wrote:
80 ftlb for cam gear bolt.


Yes, but wondering if the OP was aware of that and had done so. He seemed to have a theory that the gears might have slipped on the cams.
Author:  Tony P. [ Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Geordi yes it is a bummer. Didn't really count the teeth, although I can tell you eyeing it (between two or three teeth off). It's great to have you this close. Ill let you know when we crack it open again for that widget. Ill ask my dad and let you know, I appreciate it. Thanks for the luck I'm gonna need some.

RTTT265 a picture or link would be great. When we attempted to remove the rounded head bolt we used IIRC three different style removers and none worked.

Greiswig you're right about having a keyway in those cam gears, would be a great help. And an even better one would be a timing chain. Yes I did torque the cam gears 80lb as GDE stated. One of the printed timing belt instructions I used is the one GDE made. I never said the cam gears slipped, although it is a possibility.

What we speculate is that when the engine was timed, belt installed, with idlers, tensioner and cam gears torqued all together and then released. When what we should have done was leave the cam gears loose, install the timing belt. Apply tensioner to the belt, then torque the cam gears. We believe that this step was inadvertently skipped, forgotten, mis-understood, etc...

I and my father appreciate all the help and impute from the lost jeeps forum.
Author:  papaindigo [ Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Quote:
What we speculate is that when the engine was timed, belt installed, with idlers, tensioner and cam gears torqued all together and then released. When what we should have done was leave the cam gears loose, install the timing belt. Apply tensioner to the belt, then torque the cam gears. We believe that this step was inadvertently skipped, forgotten, mis-understood, etc...


That's the ideal method although it can be skipped on a factory timed engine IMHO if and only if a) you mark and count the teeth between the cams and b) put witness makes between the cams; between each cam and the adjacent inner timing cover; on the injection pump pulley and the adjacent cover. That way you know all the teeth of the new belt are going into the exact same place as the factory belt.

I do miss keys in the cams and pulleys though
Author:  RTTT265 [ Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
http://t.harborfreight.com/38-in-drive-metric-bolt-extractor-sockets-9-pc-67894.html?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.co.nz%2F
Author:  greiswig [ Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Tony P. wrote:
What we speculate is that when the engine was timed, belt installed, with idlers, tensioner and cam gears torqued all together and then released.


Not trying to be difficult here, but merely trying to learn from your misfortune: this sentence feels like it wasn't quite completed. What is it that you think happened, exactly?

Tony P. wrote:
When what we should have done was leave the cam gears loose, install the timing belt. Apply tensioner to the belt, then torque the cam gears. We believe that this step was inadvertently skipped, forgotten, mis-understood, etc...


This is really interesting. Maybe this is why the cams didn't have keyways? It actually seems like a really good way to avoid having more tension on one side of the be belt relative to the other, etc.

I still really wonder about whether it would be good insurance to put some sleeve retainer on the joint between cam and gear.
Author:  geordi [ Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
The process is to install the belt and apply tension with the cams pinned, but the cam GEARS loose-but-in-place with the bolt retaining them. That is why they are infinitely variable, and there isn't a keyway between the gear and the camshaft. Do not use any kind of sealant either, it is not designed for that. The metal is actually made in such tight tolerances that they don't need the key, and the bolt torque (80 ft-lb) is sufficient to keep the cams locked in.

I suppose it is possible if a rocker jammed somehow that the cam might be stopped or slowed hard enough to break that bolt torque... BUT there really isn't anything in the top of the head to jam against, and there isn't anything on the cam itself to grab on to for the counter-force.
Author:  thermorex [ Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
You don't need any sleeve, if the cam bolts are properly torqued, they won't slip. It's a little tricky to do that without the Miller tool, but definitely doable, just need to ballance the holding cam force with the torqueing force, while watching the cam pins so they don't move at all (you risk stripping the thread in the valve cover if they do)
Author:  Tony P. [ Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Papaindigo Thank you for your impute. We also understood that step could be skipped. We placed several additional marks with a sharpie, took pictures, made notes, etc.. (Didn't count teeth though) additionally our original belt broke so we can only hope that by placing all the locking pins into place the engine would be timed and that the belt position would be identical to the original one.

RTTT265 thanks for the link, we used a set similar to that one made by Craftsman. I will let my dad take a look at that set and see if he wants to take another crack at it.

Greiswig I'm not trying to be difficult either however, all of us on this forum learn from each other whether misfortune or stroke of luck not just in this thread. As for my incomplete sentence, grammar, spelling, etc... I'm going to apologize for that upfront. I'm not an English major or English professor, nor have the time to revise/review/editorize the thread. (I need to fix the jeep) I think that you hit the nail right on the head with one of you're last sentences. "It actually seems like a really good way to avoid having more tension on one side of the belt relative to the other, etc. "

Geordi The first time around the cams were pined, crank was pined, cam gears torqued, fuel pump lined up, belt installed, applied tension. We fired the engine up and it ran smoothly. Finished putting everything back together. Now in hindsight I remember the timing belt tensioner jumping a little seemed fine then. It slowly started lacking in power, then smoked, started knocking, struggled starting, etc....
When we retimed it after dismantling it again, the cam gears were torqued after the tension was applied. The tensioner appeared to be smoother with the engine running even though the engine was missing the tensioner was not bouncing. We then continued to dismantle the top end (intake) and found four rockers toasted .

Thermorex I think you a Geordi are correct that the gears won't slip on the cams if properly torqued. It's just that we are unfamiliar with this type of timing belt system. We have done several other types of timing chains with keyways, etc...before throughout the years. It is an unusual feeling to see the keyway without a KEY with the amount of work to get there and leaving it without a key is unnerving. I think this one was a tough learning curve. I also have the complete miller tool kit, that was not the problem.

Again thank you each of you for your impute, parts are on order, again and I will continue to update.
Author:  thermorex [ Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Well, good luck, let us know how it goes. With proper tools, everything is a breeze...
Author:  Tony P. [ Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Triumph. The jeep is officially done. Few glitches though, the gas pedal feels sticky (lethargic) and at time seams to take longer than normal to return to idle.
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