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Retiming
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=79769		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  Tony P. [ Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Retiming
Hey all my dads original timing belt went south at 198,000 a few days ago. Currently it is dismantled and we are attempting to retime after the belt broke. Does anyone know the proper protocol for the realignment or a link for that. I've read several links and post when the belt is in position. I have not found one explaining after a belt break. I'm sure this has already been asked and answered before however currently attempting to figure it out. As usual Thanks for any assistance.
Author:  papaindigo [ Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Should be relatively simple but the devil is in the details best email/PM Sir Sam and geordi. Generally I suspect with the belt off you will need to manually turn the crank until the flywheel can be pinned with #1 piston in the proper position not 180 degrees out and then you will need to pin the cams in their proper locations. How critical it is to also set the fuel pump position I do not know.

Two important thoughts:
1. you probably need to loosen, will need a holding tool to do this as the cam pins lack strength, both cam gears and then once the belt is installed but before removal of the pins tighten them back down to be absolutely sure the cams and cam gears are lined up properly.
2. since the belt went it's certain that some or all the rockers have collapsed so they will need to be replaced. idparts is the best source as far as I know.
Author:  flash7210 [ Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
At 198K miles, this should be your second timing belt change on this engine.

If the belt broke, the pistons and valves smashed together causing valvetrain damage.
The rocker arms are supposed to break when this happens, saving the valves.
But the valves could still be damaged.

Start by dissabling the front of the motor, including the cam sprokets and inner timing cover.
Then remove everything on top of the motor and remove the intake manifold/valve cover, and
camshaft assembly.
From there you can remove and inspect the rocker arms.
I also reccomend removing the head, inspecting the valves, and replacing head gasket.

Search the CRD tech section for threads about rocker arm replacment and head gasket
replacement for further instructions.
Author:  Tony P. [ Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
First and foremost thank you both for your quick response. We are currently spinning the crank attempting to lock the crank in position first. I have a complete tool kit including exhaust pin, locking tool, etc... Flash you're spot on should be second belt replacement however my dad believes in if it ain't broken don't fix it. Hoping the valve train isn't shot, and attempting to retime as is first. Just checking to see if any one knows the procedure to retime after a belt break. I will contact GDE later today again thank you. Tony
Author:  RTTT265 [ Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Ill be keeping an eye on this as I as of today am dealing with a snapped belt :D
Author:  GreenDieselEngineering [ Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
If the timing belt broke while engine is running, there will be 1 or many more broken rocker arms. Pulling the intake will be necessary. Hope it works out.
Author:  Tony P. [ Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Starting to remove the valve cover now. Placed the crank, then fuel pump, and intake into time however couldn't time the exhaust side. It'll only turn about 1/4. Was hoping that it could be timed slap the belt idlers water pump etc.. on and be done with it.

Engine was at idle when the belt went. My dad tried turning it over a couple of times (in an attempt to restart) until the engine locked.

Turns out that the belt doesn't look to terrible, what caused the belt to snap is one of the timing belt tensioners locked up causing the belt to snap.

Valve cover and intake, are they one in the same?
Author:  WWDiesel [ Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Tony P. wrote:
Valve cover and intake, are they one in the same?

To answer your question, Yes, they are all one piece made together.... :wink:
Author:  Tony P. [ Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Just came inside and finished for the day. Been at it for the last two days. Wanted to take the time to thank everyone for there impute, we have a great web site with a plethora of information, as well as a good bunch of helpful and knowledgeable people willing to lend a helping hand. A lot more than I can say for Chrysler and company.

@ papaindigo that's exactly what we did first manually spun the crank into position and placed the (pin), locked and timed with a 6 mm allen because could not properly thread the pin in. Then timed the fuel pump with the marks, then did the same with the intake cam, however couldn't set the exhaust cam pin in because it would spin around locked at about a 1/4 turn. Had previously read regarding the different opinions whether to time the fuel pump or not, couldn't hurt to just spin it into "position" (right or wrong doesn't hurt any to line it up)

@flash7210 of course on point 110% would've been significantly easier to have done the belt when due, even more so because my dad already had the timing belt kit and etecnos from id parts for the last six months. You also answered my question valve cover/ intake the same, just realized that now. Also bookmarked a thread RR rockers I believe thermorex is the author.

@GDE not exactly what I wanted to hear ,however, after you advised the reality sunk in when we tried to set the exhaust cam into time.

@WWDiesel thank for answering my valve cover intake question.

Update front is completely dismantled, worked on removing the intake however it's almost done just not off yet. The injectors are off and appear to need crush washers and o rings? Any feel free to chime in on the part number(s) or who has them?

Or anything else that I'm missing chime in.
Author:  geordi [ Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Idparts.com

Call them up, talk to Corey and ask for his help on getting the parts if you can't find them on the website, but you *will* need the following for this job to be correct:

FULL timing belt kit: $400, this comes with two idlers, tensioner, belt, water pump, and associated parts for the job. Don't waste the money on the OEM pump, the Graf pump is better, and you only need to replace the front half.

FULL SET of 16 rocker arms and lifters. This will be about $350-$380.

Intake cover gasket is strongly suggested, and it is cheap.

4 injector crush washers and O-rings. They are cheap.

I strongly suggest the ARP studs for the cylinder head, this is the perfect time to replace the factory bolts with something much stronger. This would be about another $360.

Also strongly suggest the Weeks101 elbow kit, found elsewhere in this forum - This makes working on the glow plugs MUCH easier and safer. No risk of glow tips breaking off and winding up back in the cylinder.

From your local Wal-Mart or gun store: A Shotgun Bore Cleaning Kit. Specifically, you want the large mop and extension rods. DROWN the mop in brake cleaner, you cannot use too much. Go at the injector bores to clean them out, top to bottom until they are shiny. Especially at the bottom seat, this is where the crush washer does its work. It MUST BE CLEAN.

Lastly... If you need technical or labor assistance on this job, I am in Savannah at the moment, but I will be back in Boca on Thursday or so. Since you will be waiting on parts to arrive, if you want to discuss having me do the labor, there is plenty of time.

Sorry this happened to your CRD, but I have to ask... "if it isn't broke"? Does your dad change the oil in the engine when it is due? The timing belt is exactly the same kind of thing. This is a maintenance item, pure and simple. I'm amazed that it didn't break many thousands of miles ago. I'd be interested in inspecting the broken belt no matter what else happens, it would be the first actual failure that I have had the opportunity to see and compare to the 30+ belts I have replaced from running Jeeps.
Author:  Tony P. [ Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Geordi I have called and purchased several times from id parts they are all very helpful and knowledgeable. Full timing belt kit along with etecnos have been on hand for the past six months. I will finish dismantling/removing the valve cover/intake tomorrow (time permitting). I'm pretty certain that my dad's CRD needs the rockers, however, I would just like to see/confirm that I actually need the rockers before ordering them. I will heed your warning and order the intake gasket, also the injector o-rings and crush washers, and turbo inlet hose (typical gash at the bottom). About the ARP studs, and elbow kit I realize (first hand) that now is the best time to install them, however I don't think that's gonna happen though. Thank you for you're info/technical experience with the bore cleaner, sounds like the perfect way to clean it. I got a handle on the dismantling part, the assembly is the the Q. We will see, stay tuned thank you for your offer and I will definitely keep it in mind. Boca is pretty close to me an hour or so. It happened to my dads CRD, not mine. I'm just a shade tree mechanic, not an expert by any means, just know how to turn wrenches. Does my dad change his oil? Fair question. I think that the oil's viscosity would not have lasted 198,000 miles. In short, yes, every 5k or so oil changes. Amazingly, the belt does not look too bad, a timing belt idler locked causing the belt to break. I too am amazed it lasted this long. I will keep the broken belt for the time being, you're welcome to take a look at it. A plier was used to pull it out so in some places we damaged it more. It had looped in the cam gears. :D
Author:  jthomas999 [ Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
You may be looking at a head also. Once you get the rocker cover off, it will be pretty obvious if you do.
Author:  geordi [ Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Needing a head would be highly unusual, from what it sounds like, the rockers should have done their designed job and become the weakest link to protect the valve heads.

IF any of the valve stems are not at the same level as the rest of them... Then you have a valve issue. Thus far, out of about 6 different TB failures I know of, none have had valve issues. However, there have been 3 CRDs that for reasons unknown, have swallowed a valve and done some interesting damage to the affected cylinders. Messy, to say the least.

Tony, I'm with you on pulling it down before placing the order... But I have a crisp new $10 bill that says you will find no less than 3 trashed rockers, and probably more like 5-6. You will want to replace them all no matter what.

If the belt spooled onto the cam gears - Ouch. That shows how much energy is running around in there even at idle. I'm mainly interested to see the breakage point and how the rest of the belt looked. I think I still have a couple examples floating around that I could bring down to compare.

I know it is a financial hit, but if you have to choose, do the ARP studs now, and leave the elbow for another day. The studs are harder to get to (you are approaching the middle of the 12 hour job to do them) while the elbow can be done in about 3 hours without really pulling much of anything other than the affected parts.

I'll send you a PM with my phone number, if you have any questions tomorrow about what you are looking at, give me a call. The reassembly won't be tomorrow, but just be aware - it is very tricky, more so if you've never attempted it before. This is a goofy engine design.
Author:  Tony P. [ Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Update: Intake - valve cover is out. Visually 8 rockers are broken! Compression test complete all four cylinders hold air. So I guess the rockers did what there supposed to do as everyone has stated.
Author:  WolverineFW [ Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Tony P. wrote:
Update: Intake - valve cover is out. Visually 8 rockers are broken! Compression test complete all four cylinders hold air. So I guess the rockers did what there supposed to do as everyone has stated.


I say replace all 16 and be done with it. I would also highly recommend ARP studs while you are in there.
Author:  jthomas999 [ Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
Geordi, some of us have rods let loose, others have valves that break, get embedded into pistons and destroy cylinder sleeves and heads :-(

John
Author:  geordi [ Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
With a timing belt breakage, or just in general? So far, I have yet to hear of valve damage happening in concert with a belt breaking.

I'm definitely not saying that it is impossible, but that isn't how the engine is designed to fail when the timing belt breaks. That was a known potential failure, so the engineers designed a failure point to protect the rest of the engine. If the engine swallows a valve, that is certainly a potential failure on any engine, but MUCH more rare than breaking a belt. Valves are supposed to last the life of the engine.
Author:  DOC4444 [ Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
The very important question that has not been raised is whether the head gasket has started leaking. If so, just installing ARPS will probably not work, long term. Also, retorqung the OEM bolts will probably not last either.

It is obviously too late to check for residual pressure in the header tank, but you can see if there is any coolant in the overflow side. Also, have you been adding coolant? (Can leave through many places, though.)

You REALLY do NOT want to go to all the trouble you have to to replace rockers and then have the HG leak in a little while. If you are not convinced, check the torque on your head bolts. Set your torque wrench to 80 lbs. Then go up in 5 lb increments until each bolt cracks free in the OEM tightening pattern and record the breakaway torque for each one. We found a range of between 85 and 135 lbs. Our head had just started leaking on the passenger side of number three cylinder. The outboard bolt took 85 lbs to break free. The inboard took 135 lbs. Apparently, the head crushes unevenly, leading to erratic torque loss. People have tried retorquing the OEMs, but this has not been successful.

I wish I had known about this when I did my 100K service. The HG was not leaking then. I could have just installed ARPs and saved $3500 dollars.

Your call.....

DOC
Author:  taroo [ Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
DOC4444 wrote:
The very important question that has not been raised is whether the head gasket has started leaking. If so, just installing ARPS will probably not work, long term. Also, retorqung the OEM bolts will probably not last either.

It is obviously too late to check for residual pressure in the header tank, but you can see if there is any coolant in the overflow side. Also, have you been adding coolant? (Can leave through many places, though.)

You REALLY do NOT want to go to all the trouble you have to to replace rockers and then have the HG leak in a little while. If you are not convinced, check the torque on your head bolts. Set your torque wrench to 80 lbs. Then go up in 5 lb increments until each bolt cracks free in the OEM tightening pattern and record the breakaway torque for each one. We found a range of between 85 and 135 lbs. Our head had just started leaking on the passenger side of number three cylinder. The outboard bolt took 85 lbs to break free. The inboard took 135 lbs. Apparently, the head crushes unevenly, leading to erratic torque loss. People have tried retorquing the OEMs, but this has not been successful.

I wish I had known about this when I did my 100 service. The HG was not leaking then. I could have just installed ARPs and saved $3500 dollars.

Your call.....

DOC


So....at the end of the day, would all recommend ARP studs to ensure properly and evenly torqued head bolts at the 100K TB change? Or, do all believe that the OEM headbolts can last forever without a leak due to changing torques?
Author:  geordi [ Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Retiming
With what has been discovered on multiple CRDs that I have seen below the valve cover on - Doc's being the most recent - I cannot in good conscience ever suggest using the factory bolts again.

IF the engine is not leaking currently, that is NOT a guarantee of not leaking in the future. Whether the overflow tank should gain any coolant (which then is drawn back into the engine) during extreme temperatures or operations... That is subject to some debate.

A continuing loss of coolant (leading to the alarm sounding, topping off, and then the alarm again at some sooner date in the future) should be investigated fully. Excessive pressure or exhaust gasses in the coolant tank are a 100% guarantee that the head gasket has failed. There should NEVER be exhaust gasses detected in the bottle.

One member had his factory bolts SNAP when attempting to re-torque them. This is something I cannot explain, because I personally cranked nearly 250 lb-ft into one of these same bolts, before the flutes on the head rounded off. The shaft NEVER yielded in any way. However, it is possible that the metallurgy for the factory bolts has been changed and cannot be detected visually. I personally DO NOT TRUST any tty bolt, and never will.

ARP studs are supremely engineered, and their performance is both predictable and trustworthy. The job of getting to them isn't much fun, but it only adds about 4 hours on to a timing belt job, and is worth doing if you want the security of knowing that the head gasket won't move. I would also strongly suggest the Weeks101 elbow be done at the same time, if only because it makes the job that much easier to reassemble.
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