Stumbling starts, lost coolant, a little smoke...

greiswig · **Posted:** Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:16 am

Hello again, all. My beloved CRD is running great again thanks to some recent work, except for a few things that are raising some red flags for me. I won't bias the responses by putting my own theory out there.

First, a bit of background: 140k on it the vehicle, regular maintenance at 3k with Mobil 1, timing belt changed at 100k...essentially I've been following the recommended maintenance. It has the EHM mod, original boost hoses, and when I recently did work the airflow valve was only dirty, not clogged. Recent work included pulling the FCV and cleaning it, along with everything that came off that side of the intake. The reason was that I was throwing 0299 and 0234 codes: underboost and overboost respectively. Turned out that the codes were correct, because my turbo vanes had frozen at about the midpoint.

Based on input here, over about a week I tried "the Italian tuneup," where you find a hill and floor it. Invariably it would throw the 234 code at that point, and it never fixed the issue. So off came the turbo, and after lots of cleaning and judicious application of graphite, I'm happy to report that no more boost issues are coming up.

At the same time, I also replaced all 4 glow plugs because one of them was bad. I had assumed that the missing glow plug was part of the reason I had been getting hard starts and a bit of smoke on startup. But it's summer now, so cooler weather is also gone. I also repaired the Kennedy lift pump I have, and made sure there wasn't air in the Racor filter head I'm using.

Okay, now for the symptoms:

So I'm not convinced that I'm losing the coolant into the engine, but I haven't spotted any leaks outside. Given how slow the leak is, and given that it gets parked on gravel, I might not see a leak. And if it leaks onto the downpipe, that might make for the sweet smell. But not for the smoke in the exhaust. And it could be that the stumbling starts are unrelated, but...coincidences are not my first line of thinking.

So...I open it up to the collective genius of the LOST community. Any thoughts?

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:38 pm

All signs your head gasket is going bad. I see ARP studs and head gasket in your future.

greiswig · **Posted:** Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:54 am

Yeah, okay...that's what my gut is telling me, too. Odd thing is that there is no pressure in the coolant reservoir. None. Hot or cold. So how is it trickling at zero psi from the cooling galleys into the cylinder at night, assuming that's what is happening, when 400psi doesn't seem to be enough to make gases get past the other direction?

I'm still trying to sift through that 14p thread to see best sources for a gasket and for those studs...and how to tell which head gasket to get. Nuts. I needed this like I needed a hole in my head gasket.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:11 am

Lets first eliminate the simplest causes before removing the head...

greiswig wrote:

- Starting when cold sounds like there is air in the fuel...it stumbles for a bit, as though it is firing on 2 of 4 cylinders. This can happen with the engine warm, too, but less frequently. No particular pattern to it that I can tell.
Sounds like a glow plug problem

- I have on a couple of occasions smelled that sweet smell of burnt coolant, around the time I'm starting it up. I don't notice that smell when I circle back around to the tailpipe, but I haven't done that when the exhaust is really smoky.
That smell could be coming from a leaking heater core

- On cooler mornings like today (55F), the first mile or half mile of driving has me showing quite a bit of whiteish smoke out of the tailpipe. After that it clears up just fine and runs perfectly[/list]
Again, this could be a glow plug problem

What glow plugs did you use for replacement? Stock ceramic 7 volt, Etecno metal 7 volt, or the newer metal 5 volt plugs?

The leaking heater core is consistent with your small coolant loss, lack or pressure, and smell.
I recommend pressure testing your cooling system.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:36 am

Simple test on heater core leak, bypass it by disconnecting the inlet heater hose and connect it to the outlet hose connection point on the motor. Run like this for a week or so and see if the coolant level problem disappears.

If it does, you have found your problem and there is nothing wrong with your head gasket!!!!

greiswig · **Posted:** Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:30 am

flash7210 wrote:

Lets first eliminate the simplest causes before removing the head...

greiswig wrote:

- Starting when cold sounds like there is air in the fuel...it stumbles for a bit, as though it is firing on 2 of 4 cylinders. This can happen with the engine warm, too, but less frequently. No particular pattern to it that I can tell.
Sounds like a glow plug problem

- I have on a couple of occasions smelled that sweet smell of burnt coolant, around the time I'm starting it up. I don't notice that smell when I circle back around to the tailpipe, but I haven't done that when the exhaust is really smoky.
That smell could be coming from a leaking heater core

- On cooler mornings like today (55F), the first mile or half mile of driving has me showing quite a bit of whiteish smoke out of the tailpipe. After that it clears up just fine and runs perfectly[/list]
Again, this could be a glow plug problem

What glow plugs did you use for replacement? Stock ceramic 7 volt, Etecno metal 7 volt, or the newer metal 5 volt plugs?

The leaking heater core is consistent with your small coolant loss, lack or pressure, and smell.
I recommend pressure testing your cooling system.

Thanks for the thoughts.

I replaced all 4 with the Etecno 7v metal glow plugs, and checked all before I installed. That was a month ago, so while failure is possible it seems unlikely.

I'll look for a pressure test system today.

Another thought occurred to me: do these fuel injectors fail in a way that allows them to leak into the cylinder when the engine is stopped? Too much fuel in the cylinder when starting would explain everything but the smell, and if the heater core is at fault for that portion...

Another symptom: yesterday after work, I was afraid I was hydrolocking the engine. Hit the starter, and the engine just stopped. (Battery is fine). It may just have been that I didn't have the key turned completely, but I wasn't sure, and I was feeling paranoid. I waited a few minutes in case it was forcing fluid past the rings, and tried again gingerly...same thing. Same wait. Third try, it fired up and stumbled a bit, but not very much smoke. Hydrolocking could happen with either fuel or coolant...not very eager to fire it up until I figure out what is going on, so bypassing the heater core won't tell me much. Hopefully a pressure test will suffice.

greiswig · **Posted:** Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:38 pm

Well, thanks to a kindly soul here (thanks again, Mitch!) I was able to borrow a leak down tester. It doesn't go down fast, but it does go down and it leaves a puddle on the garage floor. Looks like a radiator leak on a seam on the drivers side.

Okay...but that still doesn't explain the stumbling starts and the white smoke and the "oh crap it's hydrolocking" start yesterday.

So I'm thinking I need to pull the injectors and get them tested? I don't see any perceptible rise in my oil level, which might happen if unburnt biodiesel was creeping past the rings.

I still wonder if the fuel rail pressure can relieve itself through an injector or injectors, and leave a pool of fuel in the cylinder? That might cause some of the symptoms I'm having. Is there any wisdom here about that?

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:34 pm

Send an oil sample for analysis before you start pulling injectors. It will show if there is anything in your oil that should not be there and it is not that expensive.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:15 pm

What he said - it is a HECK of a lot cheaper than pulling and testing perfectly good injectors. I have yet to hear of a single CRD that has had an injector genuinely fail.

These same injectors are used on different engines with many many more miles and hours on them than any CRD has yet reached. They can go the distance, Bosch makes a good product.

greiswig · **Posted:** Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:46 am

Got any good recommendations for an oil analysis company? I'm waiting for a quote from ALS Tribology here in Portland, but I don't know what to expect.

What would be the goal for this? Just to see whether coolant or fuel or both are contaminating the oil?

I made some progress yesterday: pressure testing, I've ruled out the heater core as the leak, but have yet to bypass the EGR cooler. Going to take some work just to reach those. But with the SEGR in place from early on, I'm starting to lose hope on the HG.

In tentative preparation for that...

1. Is there a place to buy just a head gasket? I'd rather not pay for bolts that I won't use. I saw the image of the Elring gasket in the "ARP Studs" thread, but I can't find the same section of their web site.
2. Is there a "best deal" place to buy the studs?
3. Can you tell before taking the head off whether you have a 1 or 2 hole head gasket? I saw a picture of a removed one, but it wasn't clear whether the holes in question were visible outside the block or not.

Thanks again, all.

greiswig · **Posted:** Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:49 am

geordi wrote:

I have yet to hear of a single CRD that has had an injector genuinely fail.

Hmmm...I thought I read at least one person here who had theirs tested and had problems.

greiswig · **Posted:** Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:01 pm

Well, no more question now. I isolated the EGR cooler and the cooling system still lost pressure. So I took out injector #2 and looked down the hole...there's coolant down there. Stuck a pipette down and sucked it up...yes, it's coolant.

Well, at least now I know.

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:46 am

Bugger. Well, as you said, at least now you know.

Please record your bolt torques as you are pulling things apart... Maybe you will discover that the #2 bolts are loose on the exhaust side and help the group.

Good luck in the repair.

stynkr · **Posted:** Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:58 pm

Did the problem get solved? Glow plug failure? Head gasket failure? Oil analysis done? Pull injectors? Coolant in the cylinder - Oh yes. I got that answer. What caused the problem?

Here is me. 2006 CRD never had to add coolant until October 2013. That is a tight engine right. I just watched the coolant stay at the same level. In October 2013 get the first ever lo coolant signal. Add coolant. A few months go by - code for Number 2 glow plug failure trips. Some coolant added this past summer. I credited it to some boiling off with summer heat. Long story short - August had all glow plugs replaced with Etcno 7 volt metal and both timing and serpentine belt, and the water pump and thermostat and the rollers and the tensioners at 95K miles. Codes cleared. Original #2 glow plug intact. Happy camper trip from Texas to Colorado and back - no codes and no lo coolant signal. This cool garage kept morning after a 2 day sit, engine stumbles like other theads mention, allow a 3 minute warm up and what do I see and smell? Steamy smoke that smells like the sweet smell of coolant. Maybe a leaking head gasket or worse, a cracked head or worse, cracked piston, does it get worse from that?

Coolant looks clean. A leaking head gasket seems to me the source. No puddles anywhere. No smell of coolant in the air coolant. Might give the heater core isolation trick a try. Loss of coolant seams greater than the heater core would cause. Plus no puddling in the car cabin.

How much does that head gasket job cost you at a non-dealer mechanic? And it sounds like the timing belt has to come off and deja vu all over again.

Can anyone confirm my suspicions?

ps - ignore the WK. This is a Jeep Liberty 2006 CRD with a hot tune, EHM and not much else.

greiswig · **Posted:** Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:48 pm

Stynkr,

Mine proved to be a cracked head. Hope yours is easier. My advice: pressure test tend coolant system. See if it leaks somewhere visible. If it loses pressure but you can't see where coolant is going, turn the crank by hand to find out if you have water in a cylinder that might hydro lock before you try to crank the engine.

Oh, and...good luck.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:14 pm

greiswig wrote:

Stynkr,

Mine proved to be a cracked head. Hope yours is easier. My advice: pressure test tend coolant system. See if it leaks somewhere visible. If it loses pressure but you can't see where coolant is going, turn the crank by hand to find out if you have water in a cylinder that might hydro lock before you try to crank the engine.

Oh, and...good luck.

Did you hydro lock your motor?
Was there any damage other than the cracked head?

I confirmed my head gasket leak today. #2 cylinder was full of water.
I hope its only the head gasket.

Also,
How did you determine the head was cracked?
And where did you find a replacment head? Was it new or used?

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:48 pm

Chances are extremely great that it is the head gasket and the crap factory bolts. Please record your removal torques for the research sticky thread, and I would strongly suggest ARP studs when you replace the head gasket.

Look around your local area for a cylinder head shop, they can test the head for you for flatness and good valve sealing, and look it over for any evidence of cracking. That would be highly unusual though.

stynkr · **Posted:** Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:10 pm

Thanks for the good encouragement. However I am leaning toward a failed EGR cooler and or EGR itself. Never had any symptoms of a hydro-lock. I removed the relay for the FAMOUS viscous fluid pump. At least it won't be pumping COOLANT to a useless EGR. I intend to blank off all exhaust lines and all coolant lines leading to and from the EGR. The GDE Hot Tune I use has nulled the signal to the ECM anyway. I will agree with anyone who says there is a bunch of junk attached to the CRD which is contrary to best performance. Incidence of bellowing vapor cloud on cold start up has diminished since relay removal. Still a small loss of coolant in the meantime.

Later.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:51 am

Despite the tune, the EGR is not a positive seal when it is closed. Mechanically, it still leaks boost out from the intake. The best solution I have seen is the Weeks Elbow Kit, it completely prevents EGR into the intake and also eliminates any boost leaks out.

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

The EGR is a poppet valve and does provide a tight seal when it is closed. The only way it would be leaking is if soot buildup is blocking it open. A manufacturer would not design a EGR valve that leaks all the time as this would negatively affect engine running and emissions and make it very difficult to certify with the EPA.

Stumbling starts, lost coolant, a little smoke...

Who is online