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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:04 pm 
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As I understood, one by one ARP head studs on a non-leaking head should not leak ever!


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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:20 pm 
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lacabrera wrote:
Just seems strange barring in mind we have 10 times more of these diesel engines here in Europe that we have not recorded as many head gasket problems as what your experiencing in the states. Yes the older VM 2.5 and 3.1 tdi installed in the 1994 on XJ Cherokee here suffered badly with head gasket problems that was caused by overheating. Like I said yes I would install ARP studs if i felt that will lock down the head better but I feel its the alloy head that's letting go?
I torqued new factory TTY bolts several times up to 120lbft rather than using the FSM way. That was around 3000 miles ago with no issues as yet. I did a test run first on an old CRD head and @ 130lbft the head started to deform and started to crush on several areas especially around the outer exhaust bolts and caused the hydraulic lifters/adjusters to stick in there bores.


A quick search verified my assumption that the high temps in the US are higher than that in Europe. It also looks like Americans drive much more than those in Europe, with the UK being the exception (they are about the same). Perhaps the long distances that people drive in the US, and a better economy (people are probably less frugal?) that I would guess that Americans drive a bit more intensely on average also.
Anyhow, I think the cooling systems are worked a lot harder in the US do to a combination of factors. Most of our major cities (where most people live) see temps in excess of 100 degrees F fairly often. Perhaps our extreme cold in the Midwest and North are also just as bad on head gaskets do to more contraction? hmm

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Mech fan, VH & AC delete,tensioner relocated
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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:53 am 
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jwhite wrote:
Hello all! new to the forum. Im desperate to find a parts supplier for the 2.5 non U.S crd. I have a 2004 Cherokee sport 5spd 4x4. Looking to rebuild engine. Thanks for any help.


What parts, specifically? I do not know what the head bolt specs are for that motor. VMM might.......ask them!

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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:52 pm 
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Symptom: Using about a pint of coolant per 200 miles.
Problem: Cracked head behind #3 and #4 intake valve pockets. No pressure apparent in the coolant bottle since leak was behind closed valve during compression. Head Gasket showed no sign of leaks. Leaks found by pressure testing and shooting coolant out the glowplug holes, and confirmed by underwater bubble testing at machine shop.

Solution: A low mileage "test engine" head from VM Specialist (about $580 with next day shipping to MN), ID parts head gasket install kit, and ARP Studs from Lightning Motorsports ($315 shipped).


CRD YEAR: 2005
MILEAGE: 144,000
BOLT TORQUE CENTER ROWS:
01: 104
02: 108
03: 110
04: 108
05: 97
06: 83
07: 102
08: 109
09: 110
10: 106

BOLT TORQUE OUTER ROWS:
11: 97
12: 111
13: 98
14: 99
15: 100
16: 86
17: 78
18: 87


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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:35 pm 
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Very interesting results, given the point of failure on your head. Thanks for the data!

As everyone should hopefully be learning from this thread - the factory install of bolts is all over the map. Some are stupid-tight, others are so loose to make me question what happened to the bolt or if they actually aren't using torque-sensitive tools at the point of assembly.

As it is right now, I don't know if the engines were actually built in Toledo with the rest of the truck, or were shipped in from Italy in an already-built-and-ready-to-assemble condition, or somewhere in between.

Obviously, the answer is that it doesn't really matter. The question is not *if* your CRD will have a head gasket issue... The question is just *WHEN*. Don't wait if you don't have a leak, start planning now so you don't end up with a much more serious problem.


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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:36 am 
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lars0247 wrote:
Symptom: Using about a pint of coolant per 200 miles.
Problem: Cracked head behind #3 and #4 intake valve pockets. No pressure apparent in the coolant bottle since leak was behind closed valve during compression. Head Gasket showed no sign of leaks. Leaks found by pressure testing and shooting coolant out the glowplug holes, and confirmed by underwater bubble testing at machine shop.



Very similar to mine.
Except mine had cracks around the exhaust valves.

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Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, 255-75-17 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:37 pm 
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I replaced my rockers and added ARP studs after a collision that screwed my engine up. I'm still not done doing the rebuild so I don't know if the rockers have solved the problem, but here are the torque values I got during disassembly. These values were taken using one of those Harbor Freight digital torque adapters. I checked it multiple times during the process versus a click style torque wrench and it appeared to remain very constant.

CRD YEAR: 06
MILEAGE: 130,000
BOLT TORQUE CENTER ROWS: Ft-LB
01: 94.6
02: 170.2
03: 177.1
04: 165.6
05: 128.6
06: 157.2
07: 177.5
08: 163.2
09: 182.3
10: 143.4

BOLT TORQUE OUTER ROWS:
11: 143.3
12: 148.7
13: 155.5
14: 158.4
15: 151.0
16: 155.6
17: 156.8
18: 149.3

It's amazing I never had any head gasket issues before the accident with these numbers :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:23 am 
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Those numbers aren't very bad APC. Best I've heard of.

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1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4, 5.9 Cummins, 47RH, Reg Cab
2005 Liberty CRD,fixed the rockers and a couple more things,GDE Hot tune,Weeks Stage 1 and 2 EGR delete,Hot Diesel solutions Tstat assembly(wonderful heat!), ARP studs, OME 1.5" lift.....thanks Seth!


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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:25 am 
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olypopper wrote:
Those numbers aren't very bad APC. Best I've heard of.


I guess the torque values themselves are good, but the one number in the 90's, compared to the one in the 180's seemed like a pretty good spot for a failure to occur.

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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:03 pm 
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APC9199 wrote:
olypopper wrote:
Those numbers aren't very bad APC. Best I've heard of.


I guess the torque values themselves are good, but the one number in the 90's, compared to the one in the 180's seemed like a pretty good spot for a failure to occur.


From what I recall, the failures were primarily centered around the middle portion of the head gasket. When I removed the head on mine, the middle section of bolts were loose.

I'm surprised that yours held such close torque numbers. That's good though!

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1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4, 5.9 Cummins, 47RH, Reg Cab
2005 Liberty CRD,fixed the rockers and a couple more things,GDE Hot tune,Weeks Stage 1 and 2 EGR delete,Hot Diesel solutions Tstat assembly(wonderful heat!), ARP studs, OME 1.5" lift.....thanks Seth!


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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:03 pm 
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geordi wrote:
Very interesting results, given the point of failure on your head. Thanks for the data!

As everyone should hopefully be learning from this thread - the factory install of bolts is all over the map. Some are stupid-tight, others are so loose to make me question what happened to the bolt or if they actually aren't using torque-sensitive tools at the point of assembly.

As it is right now, I don't know if the engines were actually built in Toledo with the rest of the truck, or were shipped in from Italy in an already-built-and-ready-to-assemble condition, or somewhere in between.

Obviously, the answer is that it doesn't really matter. The question is not *if* your CRD will have a head gasket issue... The question is just *WHEN*. Don't wait if you don't have a leak, start planning now so you don't end up with a much more serious problem.


The head bolts are tightened using a machine that torques all 18 bolts at once. Far better than what we could achieve. The fault lies within the alloy casting?

Torque release values will change over time and use. Expansion/compression the bolts may stretch the flimsy alloy head will deform around the bolts giving lower torque values especially around the exhaust valves.

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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:28 pm 
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Here's my daily driver CRD that had a minor leak. I decided to throw newish head on it at 180k miles instead of chancing dropping a valve or a crack. I did boil this engine over once, and several other close calls with my various experiments on the cooling system... So, I'm expecting the head to be warped, but I haven't check it yet.

The last few I pulled the head on had been messed with by dealerships, and failed, so I didn't record the values, as they weren't factory, and hadn't seen many miles. Who knows if the original bolts were reused on them...

Did the front of my engine get much warmer?
---110 130 140 160
120 170 160 140 160
110 140 140 110 170
---130 130 140 150

1. 120
2. 140
3. 160
4. 110
5. 160
6. 170
7. 140
8. 140
9. 170
10. 110
11. 110
12. 130
13. 140
14. 160
15. 130
16. 130
17. 140
18. 150

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05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat, Ironrock trilink,OME lift, JBA UCA's, Moabs&245/75 Duratracs, GDE tunes ,Truetrac front,FFD fan,ARP's, new head,rockers, cams,sasquatch battery tray & grid heater, Suncoast TC, welded EGR port & trans drain, muffler delete,
Mech fan, VH & AC delete,tensioner relocated
-CRD's being restored


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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:06 pm 
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I edited my above post, as it adjusted my pattern to the left, so now it's easy to see that the front of my head was loose compared to the rest of it. I couldn't get a good read on the HG as to where it was leaking, but when I went to scrape the block clean, it was obvious from significant rust, that the water was leaking around #1...

I think this is really interesting because I torture tested this engine with heavy towing and an inline thermostat (hey, my CRD came with it from the PO :roll: ). It didn't leak prior to this abuse, and so maybe those more insightful than myself can draw some good conclusions from this? I think the lag time of the inline is dangerous, and what about the failed stock stat and blocked off bypass. With the bypass closed, would the front of the engine heat up more? I thought someone said that the thermostat area (#1?) should be the coolest?

One last thought. Maybe my E-fan is a bad idea, and maybe the significant air that the mechanical fan blows even when not engaged was deemed necessary by the designers?

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05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat, Ironrock trilink,OME lift, JBA UCA's, Moabs&245/75 Duratracs, GDE tunes ,Truetrac front,FFD fan,ARP's, new head,rockers, cams,sasquatch battery tray & grid heater, Suncoast TC, welded EGR port & trans drain, muffler delete,
Mech fan, VH & AC delete,tensioner relocated
-CRD's being restored


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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:56 am 
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Mountainman wrote:
I edited my above post, as it adjusted my pattern to the left, so now it's easy to see that the front of my head was loose compared to the rest of it. I couldn't get a good read on the HG as to where it was leaking, but when I went to scrape the block clean, it was obvious from significant rust, that the water was leaking around #1...

I think this is really interesting because I torture tested this engine with heavy towing and an inline thermostat (hey, my CRD came with it from the PO :roll: ). It didn't leak prior to this abuse, and so maybe those more insightful than myself can draw some good conclusions from this? I think the lag time of the inline is dangerous, and what about the failed stock stat and blocked off bypass. With the bypass closed, would the front of the engine heat up more? I thought someone said that the thermostat area (#1?) should be the coolest?

One last thought. Maybe my E-fan is a bad idea, and maybe the significant air that the mechanical fan blows even when not engaged was deemed necessary by the designers?

I think you head gasket leak had more to do with inadequate torque of the head bolts.

I believe cylinder #1 should be the coolest simply because its closest to the thermostat outlet. Look at it this way, if there was zero thermostat, coolant around cyl 1 would have the quickest path out from the engine. Cylinder #4 would have the longest path.
But when you put a thermostat in there, all 4 cylinders should be almost equally hot until the thermostat opens. The purpose of the bypass is to allow some coolant to circulate and maintain a more balanced temperature until the thermostat opens.
Image
Also, look at all the holes and openings in the head gasket. You will find that cyl 1 only has two openings for coolant to pass from block into the head. Cyl 4 has four openings. Cyl 2 and 3 each have three. This is designed to balance coolant flow across the entire head.

I dont think that an electric cooling fan is a bad idea. Whats most important is that the fan (electric or mechanical) can pull enough air through the radiator (and A/C condenser and intercooler) to keep the engine cool at high load.
You could even wire the electric fan to be ON all the time if you wanted.

I removed my mechanical fan and only use the factory electric pusher fan.
I found that even during 20-30 deg F outside temperatures, coolant temps can still get pretty high when climbing a steep hill at slow speed.
So, I wired up the fan so that its always on at LOW speed and use a toggle switch to kick it on to HIGH speed when needed.
When using the factory electric fan control settings, there are only two conditions when the electric fan will turn on:
1. engine coolant temp gets above 205 F
2. A/C compressor turns on (as sensed by one of the A/C pressure switches)

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Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, 255-75-17 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:10 am 
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thanks Flash, I'll be torture testing my engine again starting next week, but this time it will have Jeff's thermostat and strait pipe cat back, hopefully it cools better.

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05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat, Ironrock trilink,OME lift, JBA UCA's, Moabs&245/75 Duratracs, GDE tunes ,Truetrac front,FFD fan,ARP's, new head,rockers, cams,sasquatch battery tray & grid heater, Suncoast TC, welded EGR port & trans drain, muffler delete,
Mech fan, VH & AC delete,tensioner relocated
-CRD's being restored


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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:59 pm 
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I think that the difference in area between the factory head bolts and the ARP stud hardened washer is significant. That translates to more clamping force at lower stress levels and a more rigid head.

It appears to me that the original design included head washers, but they were subsequently deleted prior to final assembly. I cannot otherwise account for the machined depression, as discussed in the ARP stud thread.

It is interesting to see the variance in release torques. I think this has to do both with head warping and install torque variance, and again the studs help with both.

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2005 Liberty CRD- ARP studs, Fumoto, Hayden FC, inline Tstat, ETechno 7v GP, Platinum P1, in-tank lift pump.
1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
Case 580B
Mitsubishi MT180 diesel
Kubota BX25 diesel


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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:45 pm 
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LMWatBullRun wrote:
I think that the difference in area between the factory head bolts and the ARP stud hardened washer is significant. That translates to more clamping force at lower stress levels and a more rigid head.

It appears to me that the original design included head washers, but they were subsequently deleted prior to final assembly. I cannot otherwise account for the machined depression, as discussed in the ARP stud thread.

It is interesting to see the variance in release torques. I think this has to do both with head warping and install torque variance, and again the studs help with both.


I like that theory. I wonder if most cracks could be traced back to the stresses of the factory bolts "the wedge" that sinks into the head, displacing material? I've dealt with other aluminum heads, and they weren't deeply "stamped" by the head bolts. I wonder if this is a common phenomenon with any good quality, long lasting aluminum heads? Has anyone seen heads that are imprinted like this from the head bolts?
I guess turbo diesels are the true test of design strength, so maybe only other TD's are worth comparing?

_________________
05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat, Ironrock trilink,OME lift, JBA UCA's, Moabs&245/75 Duratracs, GDE tunes ,Truetrac front,FFD fan,ARP's, new head,rockers, cams,sasquatch battery tray & grid heater, Suncoast TC, welded EGR port & trans drain, muffler delete,
Mech fan, VH & AC delete,tensioner relocated
-CRD's being restored


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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:36 pm 
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The durmax cylinder heads are aluminum.
They also use 18 bolts per head like ourr CRD.
You can see the machined smooth surfaces around each head bolt hole.
Image

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Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, 255-75-17 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:08 pm 
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I just went back and looked at my old cracked head.
Couldnt see or feel anything unusual about the head bolt recesses. They all seemed perfectly normal to me.

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Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, 255-75-17 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:35 am 
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Mountainman wrote:
LMWatBullRun wrote:
I think that the difference in area between the factory head bolts and the ARP stud hardened washer is significant. That translates to more clamping force at lower stress levels and a more rigid head.

It appears to me that the original design included head washers, but they were subsequently deleted prior to final assembly. I cannot otherwise account for the machined depression, as discussed in the ARP stud thread.

It is interesting to see the variance in release torques. I think this has to do both with head warping and install torque variance, and again the studs help with both.


I like that theory. I wonder if most cracks could be traced back to the stresses of the factory bolts "the wedge" that sinks into the head, displacing material? I've dealt with other aluminum heads, and they weren't deeply "stamped" by the head bolts.


I have seen similar issues WRT head galling with VW produced TD AL heads. I doubt the cracks are the direct result of the bolts, but more likely variance in the heads as produced and head warping lead to flexing stress and cracking. Studs are the school solution with those engines as well, which is where I got the idea from.

[quote=Mountainman]I wonder if this is a common phenomenon with any good quality, long lasting aluminum heads? Has anyone seen heads that are imprinted like this from the head bolts?
I guess turbo diesels are the true test of design strength, so maybe only other TD's are worth comparing?[/quote]

_________________
Grid power- the one true essential

2005 Liberty CRD- ARP studs, Fumoto, Hayden FC, inline Tstat, ETechno 7v GP, Platinum P1, in-tank lift pump.
1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
Case 580B
Mitsubishi MT180 diesel
Kubota BX25 diesel


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