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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:20 am 
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ah, ok. That makes sense. We sure got lucky that a suitable bolt was already in production :rockon:

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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:42 am 
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The 12 mm head bolt seems to be a common size in EU designs, and the head thickness likewise. I am surprised that VM Motori let themselves get talked into cheaping out on the head bolts, but......

The other thing that affects this head are the air intakes running through the top of the head. This is the first such design I have seen and I have no doubt that the head design could be improved. It would be interesting to see whether one could shoehorn in a conventional side intake manifold, but that is a lot more work than I need to fool with.

In any case, we are going far afield of the reason for this thread, which is release torque data for existing head bolts. DAta, we need your data!

LMW

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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:58 am 
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Might be worth investigating the newer version of the 2.8 VM diesel engine fitted to the export KK. I know it has a completely redesigned head with the cams installed in the head not in the cover. Timing belt runs to 1 cam and gear driven to the second. I do not know if the crankcase is the same?

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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:58 am 
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I have been associated with the aircraft fastener business for many years. Basically, what you are seeing is to be expected on production engines that have been in service. Breakaway Torque may be affected by variations in operating temperature, humidity at the time of assembly, variations in lube used on fasteners during assembly, friction in the thread interface due to variations in thread tolerances. As an example, there is a device for measuring torque tension on a simple fastener. It measures clamping force vs torque in ft lbs. I have seen a variation in clamping force of about 80% between a dry bold/nut assembly and one that has been rubbed with a persons hands transferring skin oils onto the threads before the test. Further, when this particular fastener was loosened up and then re torqued to the identical value, the clamping force was half the original value! On head bolts, simply the surface under the head, washers used and their finish will all have various friction coefficients which can take up a significant amount of the torque during assembly. So, in summary, clamping force varies greatly with torque. Once I used a special synthetic lube torquing heads on a Ferrari. At 30 ft lbs,I pulled the studs out of the block!! (some super lube!) Different story when motor oil was used per factory instructions. If you torque connecting rod bolts, the best way is to measure bold elongation with a micrometer and torque them to have the same stretch. Because clamping force varies so greatly, many production engines are not torqued, they snug up the fastener and then tighten it by measuring the degrees of rotation. This ends up with variations in torque but a better match in clamping forces which is the real issue. I have measured connecting rod bores after torquing the end cap and then resizing them in a sunnen hone. then the bore is perfectly round. Losening the rod nuts and then retorquing, the bore is no longer round!! This was on a German Ford 2L Pinto engine. So, one set of nuts, once troqued to spec, we tossed them and used new nuts only one time. The nut threads distort in such a way causing a huge change in friction (increase) on the retorque.


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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:34 pm 
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I am inclined to ask... So? What is your point?

The process with installing the studs is consistent and approved by ARP, as it was developed in accordance with their engineers. Their studs are very highly engineered, in direct contrast to the cheaper-by-the-trainload TTY bolts that were originally used.

But my point with this research is that WITHIN THE SAME ENGINE the numbers should not be 40-50 lbs apart, eh?


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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:02 am 
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My point is simply taking data is a waste of time except to establish a problem. It seems, buy the comments in this blog, it is obvious a problem exists!! Regarding ARP, Call them and ask for a copy of fatigue tests on any of their products or QC reports on heat treat, and to what spec. If it was done to Aircraft specifications, we would not be able to afford ARP fasteners. Many of the fasteners they sell they don't make themselves. What is seen , I believe, is normal for many automotive production engines.

Perhaps some in depth analysis of fastener material, heat treat, thread dimension variations, might be useful.
Tensile tests and elongation--( bolt stretch) May very greatly depending on a few possible variables mentioned above. Remember, the bean counters are involved and low bid on components all too often wins.

I wanted to identify an aluminum alloy used by BMW on my motorcycle engine. Was told that was proprietary. So we did a spark analysis and it came up with very poor basic recycled aluminum full of impurities visible under a Scanning electron microscope. So much for a $25k bmw! The numbers should not be 40-50 lbs apart,eh. My point---in your dreams.


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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:27 pm 
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05 jeep liberty with 171,400 Miles
Replaced head Bolts with ARPs with Rocker Replacement, replaced bolts 1 at a time in same order as FSM(130 Torque inner, 120 Torque outer). No known Coolant leak before ARPs. Currently 600 miles and counting on ARPS


(4 thru 10 I was increasing by 10lbs on the Torque wrench)
Inner Bolts
1--96lb
2--99lb
3--100lb
4--90-100lb
5--90-100lb
6--90-100lb
7--90-100lb
8--90-100lb
9--100-110lb
10--80-90lb

Outer Bolts
11--96lb
12--96lb
13--94lb
14--89lb
15--90lb
16--85lb
17--85lb
18--82lb

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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:01 am 
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Was the torque for ARP studs mentioned? I thought I saw 140#/ft mentioned and my arp instructions state 125#/ft for vw applications.


EDIT

I found the answer when I changed my search terms, 130 center rows 120 outer rows. Perhaps this would be good information to drop into the "reserved for future updates" post, it took a little looking to find, then again I'm limited to my phone most of the time so reading can be challenge and I miss things.


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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:10 am 
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Good point - I will take care of that. Glad you found the answer.

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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:01 pm 
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Can some one post a link here to the elusive "ARP stud" thread? I know Iv seen it some time back but cant find it in the search. I should do this on my 05 since after a hard 25 hours straight interstate run totaling 1850 miles, the coolant tank was about 1/2" low. No running issues or visible leaking but all this stud talk has got me thinking its once again a preventative issue at this point. This stud replacement "should" be a picture sticky for all us shade tree mech's if some one could do it, many, many Blessings would be bestowed!

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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:55 pm 
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xtriggerman wrote:
Can some one post a link here to the elusive "ARP stud" thread? I know Iv seen it some time back but cant find it in the search. I should do this on my 05 since after a hard 25 hours straight interstate run totaling 1850 miles, the coolant tank was about 1/2" low. No running issues or visible leaking but all this stud talk has got me thinking its once again a preventative issue at this point. This stud replacement "should" be a picture sticky for all us shade tree mech's if some one could do it, many, many Blessings would be bestowed!


If you are already using coolant it is an indication that the head gasket has already failed. It is too late to do ARP as preventative maintenance, you need to replace the head gasket.

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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:59 am 
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cevans wrote:
xtriggerman wrote:
Can some one post a link here to the elusive "ARP stud" thread? I know Iv seen it some time back but cant find it in the search. I should do this on my 05 since after a hard 25 hours straight interstate run totaling 1850 miles, the coolant tank was about 1/2" low. No running issues or visible leaking but all this stud talk has got me thinking its once again a preventative issue at this point. This stud replacement "should" be a picture sticky for all us shade tree mech's if some one could do it, many, many Blessings would be bestowed!


If you are already using coolant it is an indication that the head gasket has already failed. It is too late to do ARP as preventative maintenance, you need to replace the head gasket.


Well, with 117K as right in the middle of timing belt #2, opening up the engine now is not going to be me. We'v decided to dump the 05 while it is still running strong. Looks like an older RAV4 will be the wife's next DD! To bad. The Italians had almost gotten it right. Industrial Diesel's like the Cummings have me spoiled. Good by to timing belts, head bolts, head gasket, rockers, and now maybe even valves? shhesh.

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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:03 am 
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xtriggerman wrote:
Can some one post a link here to the elusive "ARP stud" thread? I know Iv seen it some time back but cant find it in the search. I should do this on my 05 since after a hard 25 hours straight interstate run totaling 1850 miles, the coolant tank was about 1/2" low. No running issues or visible leaking but all this stud talk has got me thinking its once again a preventative issue at this point. This stud replacement "should" be a picture sticky for all us shade tree mech's if some one could do it, many, many Blessings would be bestowed!


viewtopic.php?f=5&t=65524&p=903347#p903347

If you are in a hurry, read pages 4 through 6.

Good luck! LMWatBullRun

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1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
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Case 580B
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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:45 am 
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Obviously, the answer is that it doesn't really matter. The question is not *if* your CRD will have a head gasket issue... The question is just *WHEN*. Don't wait if you don't have a leak, start planning now so you don't end up with a much more serious problem.
set up an HG install with geordi right now

:frankie: lol

same as the valve hey geordi : A disturbing trend is starting to take shape, and I am looking to gather information from anyone that has experienced a valve failure. There is a potential that *every* CRD might have a major design flaw, and be a ticking time bomb. As the miles start to rack up, the risk increases.

sound like fear mongering to me :google:


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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:21 pm 
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Location: RTP, NC
CRD YEAR: 2006
MILEAGE: 152,xxx
BOLT TORQUE CENTER ROWS:
01: 160
02: 157.9
03: 149.7
04: 151.0
05: 153.9
06: 155.2
07: 147.8
08: 158.4
09: 146.8
10: 150

BOLT TORQUE OUTER ROWS:
11: 135.9
12: 145.8
13: 140-150 - best guess. I think I hit the reset as I was remove the gauge
14: 128.3
15: 131.4
16: 131.4
17: 133.4
18: 127.8

I used a acdelco digital torque guage.
like this one. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004V ... UTF8&psc=1

-dkenny

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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:50 pm 
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dkenny
Wow, that seems high.

Were those the TTY stock bolts, or studs?

None of mine (original tty bolts) were over 110, and even had 2 under 50, stock at 147k
The one on the front passenger side between cylinders 3 and 4 was less than 90% turn to finger tight. (no head leaks even at that)

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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:05 am 
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stock botls...

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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:43 pm 
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Guido and Arnaldo had three cups of expresso before work that day...... :SOMBRERO:

Keep in mind that the removal torque of the factory bolts by itself is not significant, what is, is how much variance is noted with the same torque wrench and removal technique. Also, keep in mind that torque values for the ARP stud are different from the torque for the coarser factory head bolt due to thread pitch differences, smoothness of the threads on the stud and nuts, smoothness and hardness of the ARP washer, etc.

DKenny, it is good that the torques for yours were reasonably close. To me, that indicates that the head was not warped.

someone above was asking about torques- What I found was that torquing the outside bolts past 120FP with the ARP studs resulted in enough crush of the head that the glow plug holes and the head bolt shaft proper deformed enough to be noticeable. To reiterate what I have said repeatedly before, it is clear that the factory bolts DO NOT YIELD before the head does. It borders on negligence to make a wet sleeve motor, designed for great longevity, without a mechanism to reliably and repeatedly clamp the head in place without head damage. After what I have seen the last 5 years I am a believer in ARP studs and all the diesels I run with AL heads have them. Don't work for ARP or even own stock, just a very satisfied customer.

LMW

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2005 Liberty CRD- ARP studs, Fumoto, Hayden FC, inline Tstat, ETechno 7v GP, Platinum P1, in-tank lift pump.
1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
Case 580B
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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:37 am 
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I think the answer you are looking for is that these motors need to have the heads retorqued probably every 100k. I have retorqued several Cummins heads for the same reason. Assembly lines NEVER do it the right way. Just the fast way. When retorquing always make sure the hole threads are chased with a tap, sprayed with break clean, blown out with air and a single drop of oil (or whatever the mfg. recommends) is applied on every thread end and never-cease on the underside of the bolt head. This makes sure each bolt is retorqued evenly. Studs are just easier but still need done consistently. Just my 2 cents worth.

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 Post subject: Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:22 am 
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Here goes: My situation. I checked 4 CRD s with 97kno tune, 156k no tune, 166K hot tune then GDE turbo, 184 k by speedo actual 200k plus considering 32.1 diameter tires. Only the 184k had leaky gasket by cold engine test and coolant leak down, no other symptoms. So subject CRD is the 184k one. It had GDE Eco tune since at least 100k and at about 182k changed to GDE Hot Tune when swapped from vehicle that got GDE Turbo upgrade . I never checked for leak prior so I have not idea if Hot Tune had anything to do with the leak developing or not. After test with no symptoms I drove it about 400 miles with only few ounces maybe 4 or so coolant added and it was maybe a pint low when first discovered. MY opinion is since never added coolant before or changed since 100K The Hot Tune and initial aggressive driving may have exacerbated an already slight failuree or caused one.. Oil clean , no coolant smell, no leaks seen. I tore down did TB water pump and installed ARP s. I however saw LMY s early post that he used 140 ft lbs. after 100 ft lbs . I decided to go 110 initially before reading rest of stuff here since I tested a couple originals by slightly tightening and got less than 110 .
I replaced one by one in order of original install order (not that it matters) until all were replaced at 110 ft lbs. I then retorqued all to 120 in same order then 130 in same order then center two rows numbers 1-10 to 140 in order.

I replaced water pump with new front half and replaced viscous cooler then coolant so I could do pressure test while torquing head to see if it still leaked and also to ensure water pump well sealed before reassembly which I will be doing on all future TB changes. This time however instead of using radiator cap adapter and tester I borrowed. I rigged up hose barb coupler and gauge and air coupler on other end with cutoff ball valve for air line on air side of gauge. This way I could pump air into system then cut off ball valve and then watch the gauge confident it won't loose any air. I removed the smaller hose to radiator on driver (right facing front of jeep) clamped on small section of plugged hose to it and put that hose on barbed connector on the gauge. Of note you do get a lot of bubbling into reservoir initially from pumping the air in this makes it very hard to listen for a leak till it quits but you have a gauge. New time may get larger barb adapter and connect to hose the clamps to bottom of reservoir and plug same loe the reservoir out of the loop.

First at 110 gauge dropped from 15 lb down to 10 in a minute or less then slowly over 10 minutes or more down to about 6 lbs then almost stopped. After 120 lb torque still went down quick to 10lbs then much slower than before. After 130lb torque went down to 10 quick but then stayed at 10lb for over an hour. I thought Eureka! the HG must have resealed. But why the leak down to 10lb. After more snooping I realized the only variable was the radiator cap was now on system. Swapped cap from another one and Whalah!! stayed at 15lb over an hour. Not satisfied I torqued center to 140lbs and rechecked pressure and it held pressure until I released it several hours later.

I am going to chance it rather than replace HG now. I guess if I have to go back in it will just cancel out the time saved not changing Water Pump till 2nd TB job 5 times. BTW no failures in any water pumps up till this point but all will get new ones now. Only 2 rockers moderately worn rest mildly worn but replaced.

Results:

CRD year: 2005
Mileage: 184,000 Speedometer 200,000 Actual

Center bolt removal torques:

01: 105
02: 100
03: 85
04: 90
05: 100
06: 95
07: 95
08: 105
09: 95
10: 95

Outer bolt torque:

11: 100
12: 95
13: 95
14: 95
15: 90
16: 95
17: 90
18: 95

Didn't see much variation but maybe at number 3 Maybe significant or maybe not. Don't know where leak was no coolant found in cylinder. Maybe just into exhaust?

Will see what happens after back together and driving . I am reservedly hopeful that I don't have to go back in to replace head gasket.

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