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CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=79984		 Page 2 of 7
Author:  geordi [ Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
I wonder what other options might be available for head gaskets, so that we can avoid that 75% statistic?

It certainly makes a lot of sense, and would explain a lot about these engines, even considering that they aren't "race" engines, but are potentially subject to quite a bit of cylinder pressure just like a race engine.

What are "normal" head gaskets made from? Can we use some form of sealer on ours, even though they are riveted together?
Author:  greiswig [ Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
geordi wrote:
I wonder what other options might be available for head gaskets, so that we can avoid that 75% statistic?

It certainly makes a lot of sense, and would explain a lot about these engines, even considering that they aren't "race" engines, but are potentially subject to quite a bit of cylinder pressure just like a race engine.

What are "normal" head gaskets made from? Can we use some form of sealer on ours, even though they are riveted together?


I'll be the guinea pig. I'm going to try Hylomar spray on mine. I figure anything less than a glass finish on block or head means a potential leak, and would like something to fill that in.
Author:  connolcj [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
Back in April, Keith and GDE and I did a torque check on my head bolts. The inner bolts were roughly 105 ftlb and the outer bolts were about 88 ftlb. The engine was not leaking coolant at the time.

I had some other issues that required pulling the engine and doing some internal checking. I had to remove the head and I replaced it with a new head gasket and new bolts from Keith upon re-installation.

Despite using the factory torque procedure for the bolts, the engine ran fine for about a week before losing all the coolant into the oil. I haven't torn back into the motor yet, but it may be possible the bolts did not hold their torque.

It will be awhile before I have the time to do the tear down seeing as the Liberty is in Indiana and I'm in Michigan.
Author:  greiswig [ Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
connolcj wrote:
Back in April, Keith and GDE and I did a torque check on my head bolts. The inner bolts were roughly 105 ftlb and the outer bolts were about 88 ftlb. The engine was not leaking coolant at the time.

I had some other issues that required pulling the engine and doing some internal checking. I had to remove the head and I replaced it with a new head gasket and new bolts from Keith upon re-installation.

Despite using the factory torque procedure for the bolts, the engine ran fine for about a week before losing all the coolant into the oil. I haven't torn back into the motor yet, but it may be possible the bolts did not hold their torque.

It will be awhile before I have the time to do the tear down seeing as the Liberty is in Indiana and I'm in Michigan.


Hi,

I'm curious as to whether you had either the head or the block resurfaced? What were the surfaces like when you pulled them apart, and how many miles on the engine? Also, did you measure the sleeve protrusion from the block to see if they were within spec?
Author:  flman [ Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
I put ARP studs in my Limited today, did not have any head gasket, or coolant loss problems, all bolts were tight, did not get any data. :wink:
Author:  geordi [ Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
flman wrote:
I put ARP studs in my Limited today, did not have any head gasket, or coolant loss problems, all bolts were tight, did not get any data. :wink:


Uhm... Meh.

:goink:
Author:  ArmyChief [ Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
geordi wrote:
flman wrote:
I put ARP studs in my Limited today, did not have any head gasket, or coolant loss problems, all bolts were tight, did not get any data. :wink:


Uhm... Meh.

:goink:


Apparently he does not play well with others! :) :ROTFL:
Author:  gmctd [ Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
geordi, i removed my overly-long response to a separate thread so as not to prevent further independent response in this thread

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=80911

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=65524&hilit=arp+studs

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=65524

coolant leak
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=80972

Feel free to respond there, as necessary
Author:  Steevo [ Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
I started my ARP stud job this morning. Taking a lunch break but I have done the inner row following the factory torque pattern (one at a time).

Instead of using a click wrench to find the breaking point I have been using a digital torque wrench adapter that I just had tested last week (along with my 1/2 click wrench). It will either beep at a certain torque value OR display the peak torque for the last turn. I attached the adapter to a 1/2 breaker bar and broke each bolt loose. The following numbers are the highest torque exhibited on each bolt.

Call me crazy, but these seem really high compared to what most people report and seem way too tight compared to the factory spec. Might this be because they are TTY bolts?

CRD YEAR: 2006
BOLT TORQUE CENTER ROWS:
01: 156.5
02: 147
03: 140
04: 146
05: 162
06: 110
07: 158.3
08: 179
09: 166.8
10: 177.4

Dinnertime edit:

BOLT TORQUE OUTER ROWS:
11: 127.1
12: 148.6
13: 147.5
14: 149.1
15: 127
16: 135
17: 154
18: 127.4
Author:  geordi [ Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
Thanks for your results!

That is a cool sounding tool, got a link? I might want to pick one of those up, it would certainly make the data collection go faster!

As for your numbers, it is surprising that the "loose" bolt is in a different spot than usual. #6 is the cyl-4-back-intake-side of the head, about as far from the combustion center as you can reasonably get. Bolt #3 is still looser than all the others, but not substantially. It is interesting to see such a wide variation in the outer rows though, even in bolts that are next to each other. How can the head be clamped evenly on any engine, if the torque is this far apart?
Author:  Steevo [ Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
http://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-driv ... 68283.html It is only rated to 150ft-lbs but didn't seem to have a problem with reading higher values (I wouldn't exceed 200 though). I've had it for 6 months or so and it hasn't quit on me yet.

I just hope my torquing of the head was at least as good as the factory! I'm ready to get this thing back on the road.
Author:  geordi [ Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
The most recent CRD I worked on - I've been a bit behind in other work so I forgot about these numbers. The CRD lives in Alabama, North of Pensacola, Fl.

CRD YEAR: 05, Mileage approximately 125k miles
BOLT TORQUE CENTER ROWS:
01: 125
02: 175
03: 160
04: 175
05: 180
06: 165
07: 135
08: 165
09: 180
10: 175

The outer rows were not measured for expediency because daylight was starting to fade - this was a long day with this CRD. As you can see, there is yet again a significant variation in torques on the passenger (exhaust) side of the cylinders, where the intake side of the SAME CYLINDERS all are within 10 lb-ft of each other. Total range on the exhaust side is 55 lb-ft... This is too much for comfort!

If you aren't thinking about studs... Start. I honestly don't think it is a question of "if" the factory bolts weaken, but a question of "when" they WILL fail on you and cause a leak. Thankfully, the leaks start very very slow and studs can close them up if they are still tiny.
Author:  amslube [ Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
Started my tear down today. You may have seen my post about a coolant leak. I didn't have any of the typical indications of a combustion chamber breech, just coolant seeping out on the outside in the rear corner near the exhaust manifold. After 10 hours the head is out. All the rockers looked like new, no play in any. It's going together with ARP studs.
I purchased one of those digital torque adapters like Steevo used. Checked my click 1/2" drive torque wrench first and surprisingly it was very close to the digital read outs. All readings below are with this digital gauge. All broke free easily. Seems to me they are quite low compared to what others have reported.

CRD YEAR: 2005
MILEAGE: 117,500
BOLT TORQUE CENTER ROWS:
01: 95.3
02: 91.6
03: 107.5
04: 97.0
05: 97.5
06: 98.0
07: 95.5
08: 101.3
09: 91.2
10: 91.6

BOLT TORQUE OUTER ROWS:
11: 92.2
12: 89.2
13: 92.5
14: 88.6
15: 82.9
16: 78.4
17: 89.7
18: 85.2
Author:  Steevo [ Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
Really seems to be no rhyme or reason to the torque values we see, but if your numbers are accurate I can certainly see why you might have had a leak. Hopefully those studs will seal it right up again!
Author:  geordi [ Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
Interesting results. Your leak would seem to be because the water jackets on the outside of the head were not clamped enough compared to normal. Your torque values also do seem abnormally low, but I'm willing to trust the gadget from Harbor Freight since you said it matched up with your existing click wrench.
Author:  olypopper [ Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
2005 Liberty CRD
Mileage 117,000

1-143.6
2-153.9
3-146.4
4-128.8
5-111.7
6-132.2
7-138.9
8-163.6
9-137.8
10-153.5

11-139.9
12-132.6
13-132.9
14-140.2
15-122.6
16-144.1
17-158.6
18-105.4

In this disassembly I used a Snap-on ATECH3FR250B 1/2" digital torque wrench with last torque achieved recall function and snap on impact grade, six point sockets. The calibration date for the torque wrench was Feb of 2015.

The engine showed no signs of water in the cylinders. I will be installing ARP head studs with the new gasket after my local machine shop checks the head out for condition.
Author:  Mountainman [ Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
CRD YEAR: 06
MILEAGE: 154,000
BOLT TORQUE CENTER ROWS:
01: 80
02: 90
03: 115
04: 85
05: 115
06: 80
07: 80
08: 80
09: 85
10: 95

BOLT TORQUE OUTER ROWS:
11: 95
12: <80
13: <80
14: 80
15: 80
16: 80
17: 80
18: 80

I think this one was consuming fluid VERY slowly. The torque wrench also seems to be out cal compared to my new higher end one, so I think you should add about 10 ft/lbs to these values (I used one to break loose and one to torque to make it go faster).
* The two center ones on the outer exhaust side were noticeably looser than the other "80 ft/lbs" I measured.
Author:  geordi [ Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
Very interesting results, yours is the first that I have seen where the suspect bolts were actually tighter than the rest, and that the outer bolts had any significant variations at all.

Meanwhile, I'm just back from a trip into Canada and did head studs on another CRD. The digital gauge I bought from Harbor Freight was NOT functioning the way it was supposed to - the trace function didn't work at all, so I was unable to get any accurate numbers from that engine. Very disappointed.

My manual wrench worked fine to break them all loose and install the studs, but time was not available to do more than just roar through. I was hoping the digital reader would have helped speed the process. What I did observe is that all of the bolts seemed to have less fight in them than I am used to.
Author:  olypopper [ Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
Geordi, no professional mechanic should darken the doors at Harbor Freight......imho. If the average guy understood how important a torque wrench is, they wouldn't cheap out. :2cents:
Author:  Mr. Wilson [ Fri May 01, 2015 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CRD Head Bolt Research Request: We need your data!
I may have skipped over someone mentioning this so I'm sorry if I'm restating someone else. I assume that everyone here knows that there are 3 different thickness head gaskets available for these engines. You must measure the height of the cylinder sleeve in order to get the correct measurement of the head gasket. The bolts supplied with the oem gasket are tough enough and they come prelubricated. So you should NOT put any oil on the bolt threads. The bolt holes should be cleaned and dryed out before head installation. I have replaced quite a few cylinder head gaskets and have had no problems with leaks. I hope this helps someone.
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