LOST JEEPS
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/

2004 2.8 CRD Non start - loses fuel pressure
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=80121		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  StottGar [ Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:13 am ]
Post subject:  2004 2.8 CRD Non start - loses fuel pressure
Hi all,

My recently purchased 2004 Jeep 2.8 CRD has a non-starting issue. It cranks fine but does not start (although even when it starts it always had to crank at least 3-5 seconds, which I think is too long).

I purchased it 2 weeks ago, it failed to start on two occasions but was due a service anyway so I had it serviced (180 000km service) and had the fuel filter and air filter replaced. Took it home, next day it wouldn’t start at all.

Had it towed to a specialist recommended on the South African 4x4 community forum who replaced the fuel filter head (with a newer type). Started “normally” (i.e. about 3 seconds, never instantaneous start), but when I put in fuel on the way home it failed to start again.
We pumped the screw on the filter head until it can’t go anymore, bled the air out, but as soon as the ignition is turned it loses all pressure. I had someone else pump it while I turned the ignition, but the pressure didn’t build and the car didn’t start.

There are no CELs displayed and no codes generated.

Had it towed back to the specialist.

Does this sound like a lift pump is definitely needed? (are there any reasons to NOT get a lift pump?) Or are there other avenues I should explore first?

Thanks
Gareth
Author:  StottGar [ Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2004 2.8 CRD Non start - loses fuel pressure
Update: It's a 2004 Jeep Cherokee/KJ/Liberty 2.8 CRD, Limited Edition, Automatic.
Author:  Billwill [ Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2004 2.8 CRD Non start - loses fuel pressure
How do you know that you lose all fuel pressure?

I am surprised that you had the fuel filter head replaced with a new type as the Export CRDs in SA came out from day one with the good Racor fuel head fitted.

When last was the timing belt replaced.....I hope it has not slipped a few teeth.

It could be the Crankshaft Position Sensor or the Camshaft Position Sensor.

Check all fuses inside the cabin and under the "hood" and try swapping over the ASD relay under the hood with a similar next to it....you can also briefly try jumping pins 30 and 87 inside the ASD relay socket to see if it then starts.

Do you have the SKIS Key light illuminated on the cluster all the time or flashing at you....it should go ON for a few seconds after ignition is turned ON and then should extinguish.

How have you been getting codes out? From a code reader....most do not work on the early CRDs due to the PCI bus being used or do you use the "key" method of turning the ignition ON/OFF rapidly 4 times then reading out the codes in the Odometer display.....air-in-fuel problems do not post a code though.

You can download the 2003 KJ Service Manual here...close enough to your 2004 but the most important thing to do is to download the section: "2.5_2.8 Export Diesel" suplement as it covers these early Export CRDs of ours....have a look at the picture of the Fuel Filter Head shown there and see if you have the Good Racor as shown...there is a bit of an error though in the explaination of priming the fuel filter though...they neglect to tell you to open the brass bolt on the side of the head once you have got pressure up to let the air/fuel escape. :wink:

http://www.colorado4wheel.com/manuals/Jeep/KJ
Author:  StottGar [ Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2004 2.8 CRD Non start - loses fuel pressure
Hi Billwill,

Thanks for the reply. I see you also live in South Africa. Are you on 4x4 community?
http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/sho ... ost2401874

I’ve downloaded the export supplement now, thanks, will give that a good read, might save me some money in the future if I can do things myself.

1. Fuel Pressure – why I say I lose all fuel pressure is because when the ignition is turned no fuel comes from the fuel head (if open to bleed) and the primer pump goes completely soft. I might be interpreting this wrong, as I’m new to all of this.
2. The new filter head is a Racor, I’m not sure what the old one was just that it looked different. Should have taken a picture.
3. The timing belt was replaced at 133 000km, the vehicle currently is on 175k km so that should probably still be ok? I’ll replace it again at 200k, just to be safe.
4. I thought of the crankshaft & camshaft sensors since that is mentioned on quite a few threads, but would that cause the behaviour as noted at the fuel filter head?
5. Currently the vehicle is at the service centre as recommended on 4x4 community so can’t do what you suggest, but will go there on Tuesday and check the fuses and relays and SKIS. I’m assuming that they would do all that, but I’ll go check. They are also the ones with the code reader so not sure what type they use.
6. I’ve tried the key turn method, but never manage to get any codes generated. It still just shows the odometer reading. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

I suppose now we will just have to go through the process of elimination until we find out what the problem is; I just don’t want to spend lots of money and not actually solve the problem.

By the way, have you modded your Jeep and do you have a GDE tune? I was planning on doing the GDE tune this December but I suspect my budget will be tight due to all these repairs.
Author:  StottGar [ Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2004 2.8 CRD Non start - loses fuel pressure
Update:

Another reason I suspect it is an air-in-fuel problem is because prior to the filter & filterhead replacement, there were 3 occassions when it did start but died a few seconds later. Once I managed to get it to start again after that, but the other 2 times it was non-start. Haven't experienced this after the replacements but then I haven't really driven the car due to non-starts.

That's why I'm asking about the lift pump, as I've read some threads of this forum where some of these symptoms seem to have been solved by this. Am I correct in assuming air in the system can damage parts (injectors?) so keeping a constant pressure of fuel would increase my car's longevity? Then a lift pump seems to be a good idea anyway?
Author:  WWDiesel [ Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2004 2.8 CRD Non start - loses fuel pressure
Think about it this way: The injection pump is having to suck its fuel supply through the OEM filter, filter head, fuel lines, all the way from inside the fuel tank. A long way to ask a pump to pull fuel with many points for possible air infusion into the fuel due to leaks! :roll:
With a lift pump installed in the tank, it keeps a positive pressure of about 13-15 psig in the entire fuel system all the way from the tank through lines, filters, and to the injection pump. This makes for one happy injection pump who's one goal is to take the fuel supplied to it and pump it up to a very high pressure to supply the injectors... It does not want any air in its fuel supply!

It is absolutely amazing that Chrysler did not do in their design! It appears that they were planning to since it has all the wiring and relays in place except for the wires between the plug under the rear seat and the top of the tank. For some dumb reason, they decided not to install one and it has cost all of us CRD owners untold problems with air in the fuel supply. From poor running/performance problems to total engine shut down. Seems there is a posting almost every day on LOST about some kind of air in fuel suspected problem! :shock:

Having the lift pump also seems to make the engine run a little smoother as stated by some who have performed this mod including myself... :-)r
Author:  greiswig [ Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2004 2.8 CRD Non start - loses fuel pressure
StottGar wrote:
1. Fuel Pressure – why I say I lose all fuel pressure is because when the ignition is turned no fuel comes from the fuel head (if open to bleed) and the primer pump goes completely soft. I might be interpreting this wrong, as I’m new to all of this.


Unless you have a lift pump installed, there shouldn't be any pressure at the filter when running or cranking or with the ignition on. In fact, you would be letting in air because the main fuel pump is sucking fuel through the filter, so the filter is under negative pressure.

So you may have great fuel pressure at the injectors...your test doesn't show one way or the other.
Author:  StottGar [ Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2004 2.8 CRD Non start - loses fuel pressure
Hi, thanks for the replies. I probably will have a lift pump installed (it makes sense to me) but will first see if I cam rectify the problem without it.
Author:  papaindigo [ Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2004 2.8 CRD Non start - loses fuel pressure
For what it's worth I'll offer the following based on the 05/06 fuel filter head and fuel lines. Bleeding the fuel filter head should be handled just like bleeding brakes - pump the primer until hard; crack the bleeder to release pressure (ideally with a clear tube attached to the bleeder and running to a catch can; close the bleeder; repeat as needed. Do not under any circumstances pump the primer with the bleeder open; all that does is slosh so to speak air in and out of the fuel head.

I don't know about the pre-05/06 fuel lines but I do know that the 05/06 fuel lines are the same on the gasser and the diesel and that the gasser has a fuel pump integrated in the fuel tank level sending unit. This "matters" because the fuel lines also have 2 quick disconnect fittings on the supply line, distinct from the return line which doesn't factor into the air in fuel problem. Those fittings are function better to keep fuel "in" (think gasoline under pressure in the line when pumped from the tank) as opposed to air "out" (think diesel fuel being "sucked" toward the engine). The cheapest solution to air in the fuel is to eliminate both quick disconnect fittings which unfortunately on the 05/06 involves dropping the fuel tank but may not on the 04 if and only if the fuel tank sending unit access port was installed up thru the 04 model year in the floor of the cargo are behind the back seat. Regardless about 2' of marine grade diesel rated fuel line and some fuel line clamps; cut out quick disconnects; replace; no more air leak in fuel line.

Lift pump either in tank or in line (back toward tank on in engine bay) are certainly legitimate alternatives. I have and uninstalled in line. But I will note in fairness to DCJ that front/engine mounted fuel pumps were around for decades with no problems and in tank pumps are relatively recent for the rather obvious reason is a cam driven engine mounted pump requires no wiring or spark protection hence won't blow up vs and electric pump which requires wiring and relatively recent electrical wiring that prevents fuel ignition. Was DCJ wise to ditch the in tank pump from a customer perspective probably not but from a cost conscious design perspective it's not an inherently stupid decision. Yes I know the TDI has both an in line pump and an injector pump but think German over engineering and besides at least some TDI's have horrible injection pump failure rates.
Author:  Billwill [ Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2004 2.8 CRD Non start - loses fuel pressure
Yeah some CRD owners only fix their problem by fitting an inline fuel pump.

I don't know why but all the early Export CRDs do not seem to have this air-in-fuel problem....Chrysler must have changed some component to save money or maybe the 2.8 CRD just needs more fuel than the early Export 2.5 CRD.

Jeep is totally standard...had the Mopar towbar, mudflaps and roof carrier fitted when I picked it up new in 2002....use Michelin road tires on it as I mainly am on the highway....original Goodyears were a major safety hazard on even slightly damp roads!

I am not a member of the local 4X4 forums as I do not do any form of off-roading and in fact only put about about 24,000 kms
on the Jeep over the last six years....it stays locked up in the garage and only gets used to transport large items and the occasional trip to the Kruger National Park...this 12 year-old Jeep needs to last me several more years as I am retired and cannot afford to buy anything new.....we use an old classic BMW E30 sedan as a daily driver! :wink:
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/