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Just purchased, KJ won't start
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Author:  Goddethroned [ Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Just purchased, KJ won't start
Guys,

New to this forum but have seen some amazing information on here, I want to thank you in advance before I even inquire.

Having said that, I am new to this vehicle but it's not my first Jeep and it's not my first diesel. I will be running this unit on WVO as well in the future but as with my VW TDI I ran it for about 10,000 km first, made sure it was doing what it was supposed to, learned the vehicle and then considered WVO. My plan is similar for this 2006 Liberty CRD but it's not a very good one when I can't get it to run.

On to the issue, it won't start. It cranks no problem, nothing sounds funny to me, just will not ignite at all. Also the vehicle seems to be bone stock as far as I can see, 221,000 kms on the dial. Here is what I've tried so far:

- Bleed the fuel filter head (air comes out the first time if it's sat for about 10 minutes or more. It also appears to be a replaced factory one, heater wire has been spliced with heat shrink tubing, it is the cleanest part under the hood and the previous owner had literally just replaced the fuel filter. No fuel leaks detected)
- Swap out the ASD relay with another one
- Short out ASD relay leads 30 to 87 (power seems to come on, however the same noise can be heard when the key is turned)
- Key indicator comes on and goes off as it should (wouldn't appear to be a faulty key)
- No fault codes
- Fuses checked under hood and in passenger compartment (all seem good)
- OBDII code reader tells me that fuel rail pressure goes up to over 11000 psi when cranking, not sure where it gets this information from but I wouldn't imagine the issue stems from the rail and unless they were completely plugged I would expect the injectors to be having issues with that much pressure on the input side. Having said that I haven't done any specific testing on them yet)
- Pulled the fuel line going into the fuel filter head, connected an oil extractor and after a tiny bit of air I got lots of fuel in a real hurry (no restrictions in the fuel lines or the tank)
- Reconnected and pulled the outlet fuel line from the fuel filter head, connected an oil extractor and got the same result as before the fuel filter head
- Tried pumping the primer while cranking the vehicle (no change)
- Have not checked for broken wires in the bundle behind the fuel filter head (hopefully the weather's nice tomorrow)

I'm sure there's something I've missed, I'm still new to the vehicle but my thoughts at this point are that I am getting air in the fuel, I just don't know where it's from yet and I'm looking at doing the auto-bleeder mod and likely using the fuel pump I have laying around to try to alleviate any fuel or air in fuel issues. The part that is confusing me is the fuel rail pressure reading, I doubt it would get to that high of a pressure if there was air in there, or perhaps I'm thinking about that entirely wrong and it would go higher with air in there? I recall reading that someone said pressure should be around 5000 psi when cranking and the operating pressure according to the manual is 23000 psi. As I mentioned above I'm seeing (according to something that could be completely wrong) 11000 psi. After I stop cranking it drops to about 120 psi and stays there. I should also point out that the previous owner (had it for a month) had it running great, drove it home, changed out the MAP sensor, replaced the fuel filter and here we are. It has not run since.

Before I can try to figure out anything about how it runs or how it ran before this etc. I need to get it running first (I have never heard it run yet). Don't worry, I only paid $900 for the vehicle on account of these issues, I'm just wondering what in the expert opinion of CRD owners on this site would recommend? Thanks in advance!
Author:  papaindigo [ Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just purchased, KJ won't start
CBS, NL? Conception Bay South - Newfoundland maybe. Anyway

At 221,000kms on the dial when you get it running it needs a timing belt job ASAP unless you know for a fact that the job was done within the last 160,000kms or 6 or so years. It's also possible that the TB has snapped and/or jumped time in which case rockers are trashed and it won't start. I know that sounds bad but replacing the TB and bad rockers and retiming is not technically difficult or horribly expensive if you get parts from idparts, they do ship to Canada IIRC.

Cannot comment on your rail pressure reading. If it's low the issue might be a stuck fuel return solenoid which would dump fuel back into the tank and prevent rail pressure from building enough to fire.

Did the PO mess with the injectors? If so the PO may have mistakenly connected #4 injector to one of the solenoid plugs in which case it won't fire. Check #4 injector wire for a #4 label.

Try starting with a known good strong battery. The computer system is really picky about battery strength; too weak the ECU won't give permission to start.

Might be a failed crank position sensor which won't throw a code.

PM laplaya who just went thru this. Turned out to be a starter issue but I'm not sure how his spouse got it "solved" long enough to get home or what the underlying issue was/is.
Author:  lacabrera [ Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just purchased, KJ won't start
If it ran before you replaced the MAP sensor I would say you have answered the question your self. Check for loose connections and check behind the fuel filter bracket for damaged wires. Replacing the Map sensors means tugging at the wiring harness. Fuel pressure is ok pressure is higher when cranking the engine and settles down at idle.
Author:  Goddethroned [ Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just purchased, KJ won't start
Thanks for the advice.

Papaindigo, Conception Bay South, Newfoundland, yes b'y (born in Ontario though).

I will have to check on some of these options tomorrow, on my way to work at the moment.

I have checked the connections to the MAP sensor, seems solid, I can check for function with a hair dryer if I read correctly so I can try that as well. The wiring bundle seems like a realistic option, I will also check that tomorrow.

As far as timing belt, I will call the dealer where it was purchased and see if they can give me a service history however the P.O. has no idea if it was done. I'm thinking if it made it to 221,000 km, it must have been done somewhere between 120-180. Certainly worth investigating further, I was going to do this anyways.

The previous owner did no mess with the injectors and from what we can gather (he bought it from a used car dealer) the original owners were older people. I would imagine they wouldn't have done any fooling around, just bring it to the dealer and drive it home. #4 injector wire is on the further injector (closest to the firewall) so I'm sure that's correct.

As far as the battery, I've boosted it, charged it fully, I'll check for actual voltage tomorrow but the way it was cranking after charging it was going quite fast, I would say it would have been above 13 or at least close. This is an aftermarket battery so at minimum it's been replaced once. I doubt that's where the problem is.

Crank position sensor, is there any way to reasonably check the values from it? Is it hidden somewhere behind the timing belt cover? I haven't looked into that option yet.

I will message Laplaya and see what he says. Thanks very much, I'll update when I have a look.
Author:  papaindigo [ Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just purchased, KJ won't start
Crank position sensor (see pics 6-9 at viewtopic.php?f=98&t=74594). Often causes a no start on a hot engine but can cause a no start on any engine temp. In the hot engine scenario the test is to pull it; hook up volt/ohm meter; heat sensor with hair dryer; if meter goes nuts replace sensor.

Suggest unplug and replug MAP sensor if just replace. A cheap replacement is BOSCH # is 0 281 002 845 or GM PN 55206797; like $25 US
Author:  Goddethroned [ Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Just purchased, KJ won't start
Ok.... interesting. Looks like the crank position sensor might be a tough one to get to. I suppose from the bottom is the only way that makes sense?

Looks like that heat shield has to come off with the bolt from just below the turbo and then the sensor itself is just a plug and the single bolt holding it. Something tells me the skidplate underneath could guard that whole area, at least now I know what to look for so it's much easier than trying to randomly pull things apart in the hopes I might get to where I need to get.

I'm also going to do as I've done with my Jetta and that's replace the main fuel lines in and out of the filter with clear lines (I know they don't last long, I plan to keep replacing lines every 20-30,000 km as I've noticed this is about what's required) which gives me the chance to trace what's going on with air in the fuel. It's too bad Jeep decided to route the fuel line where they did, it's not particularly convenient but I suppose the flexible hoses are the only ones you'd want to replace anyways and those are mostly visible.

I'll go the MAP route first, double check all the wires behind the fuel filter head and then take the next step and verify the crank position sensor. Then provided I have fuel (I have a setup I will try if I'm unsure that the filter is working correctly) fingers crossed it will fire up like a good little CRD :).

I honestly can't wait to hear the rumble! I've gotta say that WK Jeep with the Mercedes engine..... well that's porn for cars right there.

Have a good night and I'll update what I find or don't find. Thanks! :)
Author:  papaindigo [ Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Just purchased, KJ won't start
If you are going to put a section of clear fuel line in just do it between filter head and CP3; no need to also do it on tank side.

Crank position sensor IIRC - undo coolant tank (2 screws - no need to remove hoses) slide off metal flange underneath it and move toward fender (may have to move one hose); might? need to move black vacuum tower (2 screws); might have to remove heat shield over turbo (3 bolts); remove heat shield over CPS (1 maybe 2 bolts); remove CPS (1 bolt)
Author:  Goddethroned [ Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just purchased, KJ won't start
Great instructions, I checked the wiring behind the fuel filter head first, all looks perfect. There was a slight wear mark on the jacket of the wiring bundle but all of the wires looked perfect. I put a bunch of fresh electrical tape on for good measure and even used a different colour which is much easier to tell if it's rubbing or split. MAP also appears to be connected very well, traced wires back, all looks good there.

On to the CPS, I took out the coolant tank, removed the heat shield for the turbo, it looks like disconnecting the turbo downpipe would be a big help so I'm in the process of that and seems as though the heat shield for the CPS has just the one bolt on the top. It also looks like that's a lot easier to work with from underneath. I'll pull it out, test it and report back.

Battery tested with a voltmeter, no problems, 12.83V, it's been replaced in the last couple of years, manufactured 2012.

Also I just changed a fuel filter on my Jetta, I thought the used one I had wasn't bad, turns out I was wrong. It was worse than the one I took out (if memory serves I only used it for a little bit and then diagnosed the problem as something else, seems it was the fuel filter after). Either way, it took a ton of cranking and messing with to get rid of the air pocket I had (with clear lines I can see exactly what's going on) but what I find strange in comparison to the Jeep is that even though there was air, lots of air and even though it couldn't pull fuel through the filter even, it still fired up. What I had to do was basically wet the filter, get some suction and pull fuel through it enough to get rid of the air lock but once I pushed through that lock, finally, the car ran great. This tells me that a little air in the fuel for the Jeep can't be that big of a deal, I had pockets of air (6" worth of hose or more) and it still ran so either the TDI is a lot more resistant to air issues than a CRD design or there is a LOT of air getting into the system in most people's CRD.

Judging by that, it seems to me that the CRD is getting fuel, at least some fuel but that is clearly not the issue, this tells me that the CPS is a very good guess at this point. Also I took a good look at it and I'm convinced that the fuel filter head has been replaced with at least a new OEM style one as it really looks new, like installed a month ago new including the plugs. I also checked for leaking with the plastic puck and all looks well.

Fingers crossed, I should have it out for testing later today. Report back later. Thanks.
Author:  Goddethroned [ Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just purchased, KJ won't start
Well, well, well. Not quite what I was hoping for. I started taking it apart yesterday but ran out of time and tonight I had a chance to get back at it.

Parts weren't even rusted and nothing about that was simple in any way. Got the heat shields off, got the turbo downpipe off, had to disconnect the exhaust at the muffler (resonator), those bolts even came out relatively easy but the exhaust hangers wouldn't budge so I had to take out their mounting plate and then the exhaust wouldn't hardly move anyways. Turns out the only real way unless you have a proper lift is to get literally on top of the engine to reach back to the crankshaft positioning sensor. So I disconnect the wire, remove the socket head cap screw, I can spin the CPS but it's jammed in there so tight, even with vice grips I couldn't pull the thing off.

Any ideas? I was literally ready to pull the sensor out and test it with a hair dryer, took 3 hours to be at that point and then that's it, stuck. Is there some magical way to get the CPS out? Spin 3 times to the right, press on the top, tap your heels and pull? It just doesn't make sense unless there's a big lip on the other side of where it sticks into the block. Frustrating.

Thanks!
Author:  Goddethroned [ Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Just purchased, KJ won't start
Bump....

Nobody knows how to take that silly CPS out? As I said, everything removed, I can get a hand on it from above or below but can't seem to break it free. Is there some magical special way to do so?

Thanks!
Author:  thermorex [ Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Just purchased, KJ won't start
I wonder if it's not just stuck in there, here is a pic with a new sensor:

Image

Maybe the rubber gasket is brittle and stuck in the block?
Author:  Goddethroned [ Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just purchased, KJ won't start
Thanks for the reply.

It must be stuck like something fierce. Vice grips set pretty tight on it and no dice. I'm going to try cranking the motor just once and see if maybe that does anything. Like I said, it spins around pretty easily, there doesn't appear to be anything to hold it in, just a slight pressure fit and the rubber gasket to keep what's in the motor from coming out.

Boggles the mind at how hard it's stuck in there though. I'll give it some real force tomorrow when I get the chance. Fingers crossed this is the problem because I need to put it on the road hopefully next week :P. Wish me luck!

Thanks.
Author:  rotordriver [ Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just purchased, KJ won't start
My failure to start was the CPS. Took out the allen head screw and twisted the CPS and it came right out. PITA to get to though.
Author:  racertracer [ Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Just purchased, KJ won't start
Use a small thin screwdriver to slowly pry it out.

Or vise grip the sensor and put a wood wedge under the vise grip. Constant pressure under the vise grip while wiggling the sensor should ease it out.
Author:  thermorex [ Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Just purchased, KJ won't start
What I would do is to get a new cps (not sure how much I paid, maybe 60-70?) and use a screwdriver or a small pry bar as racer said, in case you need to butcher the old sensor you'll have a new replacement, I think you're too late in the game to throw the towel... Plus, I would always keep a glow plug relay, cam and crank position sensor handy in the jeep, in case it lets you down in the middle of nowhere, since those parts may not be easily available. Worse case, in this scenario, any car shop can change them if you don't have tools handy.
Author:  lacabrera [ Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just purchased, KJ won't start
Maybe before you go to the trouble removing the crank case sensor why not check it with a ohm tester 200/500 ohms is good. multi meter set to ac volts when cranking engine a good sensor will show between 0.2 and 2 volts ac. Save a lot of work try to pull it out and find its good.
Author:  flyfisherman99 [ Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just purchased, KJ won't start
if you have the ability to check fuel rail pressure while cranking, do so. It should be around 1600psi. I had a no start situation caused by a faulty injector bypassing back to the tank which bled of fuel pressure through the return line. Simply remove small black return line on top of the injectors and look for excessive fuel bleading out of the open ports, a small bit bubbling out is ok but a steady stream is not. Also if you have a lack for rail pressure check the reurn line near the back of the rail, no fuel should be coming out of the rail if the regulator is fully closed. Do you have any fault codes? Good Luck.
Author:  Goddethroned [ Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just purchased, KJ won't start
Ok, big delay I know, lots of other things going on but..... wait for it......

I got the CPS out! Vice grips and determination were the key.

Now it's just a matter of testing and hopefully determining a faulty unit followed by replacement. Fingers crossed.
Author:  Goddethroned [ Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just purchased, KJ won't start
Alright so after about 5 seconds of hair dryer application.... 1,000,000 ohm?

Something tells me that is out of range :P

It started at 200-300 ohm if I recall but upon being heated jumped to an unbelievably high value almost right away. Off to the Dodge dealership on Monday to get a new sensor! If this works.... hot darn! Super excited :)
Author:  papaindigo [ Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Just purchased, KJ won't start
From an old post by jeepdan "Crankshaft Position/Speed Sensor. During two test drives today, the CRD has started great twelve times!! An hour ago, I connected an Ohm meter to the old Crankshaft Sensor signal terminals and the laid the sensor on the hot engine block. Within minutes the resistance of the sensor was all over the place, from high resistance to an open circuit. Just to make sure of what I was seeing, I duplicated the test on the work bench with a heat gun directed at the sensor, same results."

PN is 5066882AA or Bosch 0281002434 also apparently Standard Motor Products PC766 or Airtex 5S7000
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