Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3.

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:30 pm

racertracer wrote:

I have a confirmed head gasket leak.

This will be my 3 third time on 2 separate vehicles.

1st head gasket leak occurred on my 2005 CRD Limited at 110,000, It was repaired by the dealer and the OEM TTY bolts were used along with a new head gasket.

2nd head gasket leak occurred at 113,000 miles on the same vehicle and it scheduled for the repair again. But never made it to the shop...... it was totaled when a tractor trailer dropped a 40' cargo tarp on I-95 while traveling just ahead of me. I made it out alive.

3rd head gasket leak occurred on the replacement 2005 CRD Sport that I drive everyday with 80,000 miles on it.

Confirmed Head gasket leak via visual coolant in the reservoir side of the expansion tank and the exhaust gas tester and the one minute pressure under cap test.

So here I go again.

How many leaks occurred with ARP studs installed?

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:22 pm

Not sure anyone has reported a HG leak since installing ARPs, but it has not been very long, yet.

DOC

greiswig · **Posted:** Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:26 pm

greiswig wrote:

Geordi,

I'm not positive it is viton, but I am told by a reliable source that it is a common coating for MLS gaskets. They do have to have some coating, or they will not seal well even with a nearly perfectly machined surface.

As for the rest, you are probably right. I went out and looked at my old head, which was not resurfaced...just cleaned...before they found the crack. It looks to me like those cylinder liners actually were in contact with the head. Which just amazes me. That means that it unless you are crushing the aluminum there or bending the head, it seems even less likely for there to be a good seal anywhere else.

It also makes me seriously wonder about overtorquing using the ARP studs: if the first incompressible things that hit the head when torquing are those liners, and if the gasket isn't exactly the same thickness, any more torque is either bending the head or pressing the liners up into it.

I'm correcting myself: the rings that I saw on the surface of my old cylinder head were NOT caused by the piston sleeves...they're just where the gasket embossment contacts the head.

SargeIndustries · **Posted:** Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:38 pm

Used ARP studs with new gasket. Still leaks.... Either have head resurfaced or buy a new head or you will be doing the job twice like me.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:15 pm

SargeIndustries wrote:

Used ARP studs with new gasket. Still leaks.... Either have head resurfaced or buy a new head or you will be doing the job twice like me.

Re-surfacing a alloy head is pointless.Any warpage will set back in on the very 1st heat cycle and you have a "warped" head issue again.Never buy "used" or "remaned" alloy heads since you do not know if they have been re-surfaced or not.

greiswig · **Posted:** Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:58 pm

tjkj2002 wrote:

Re-surfacing a alloy head is pointless.Any warpage will set back in on the very 1st heat cycle and you have a "warped" head issue again.

I've heard otherwise from several machinists that I trust*, but... hey, one guy's opinion is just as good as another. ;-)

*who aren't doing work for me, or who otherwise have nothing to gain by charging me for shop time

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:20 pm

greiswig wrote:

tjkj2002 wrote:

Re-surfacing a alloy head is pointless.Any warpage will set back in on the very 1st heat cycle and you have a "warped" head issue again.

I've heard otherwise from several machinists that I trust*, but... hey, one guy's opinion is just as good as another. ;-)

*who aren't doing work for me, or who otherwise have nothing to gain by charging me for shop time

Cast iron sure,alloy heads is a no-go for long term.

greiswig · **Posted:** Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:14 pm

tjkj2002 wrote:

Cast iron sure,alloy heads is a no-go for long term.

No offense, but I have no idea what your background or expertise is. So like I said, one man's opinion is as good as another. Unless...

If you've got data or expertise to back up a pretty firm assertion like this, I'd love to hear it. I only have anecdotes (one Toyota a and one Subaru, both aluminum heads) where it worked just fine for a long time to resurface. Plus the input I got from a couple of different friends who are/were auto machinists.

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:24 pm

greiswig wrote:

The manufacturer seems really concerned about the thickness of the gasket relative to the liner protrusions. ...

Again, The head gasket thickness is determined from the piston protrusion and not the cylinder liners. The cylinder liners just have to protrude anywhere from 0.00 to 0.05mm above the deck height.

Mike

greiswig · **Posted:** Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:06 am

Mike,

I'm still a little puzzled by this. My liners definitely protrude above the block more than that: about 1.00mm to 1.30mm depending on the hole. The stock gasket thicknesses are 1.32mm, 1.42mm, and 1.52mm. It looks to me like they're trying to make sure that the compressed gasket thickness is just barely over what the protrusion is, so that the liner acts as a shield for the gasket against the combustion chamber heat.

But you're right, the manual calls specifically for measuring how close the piston is to the block surface.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:24 am

Did you do those measurements on your own engine? Did the piston actually rise above the block deck, or did it (as I suspect) remain below the lip of the liner at TDC?

greiswig · **Posted:** Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:18 pm

geordi wrote:

Did you do those measurements on your own engine? Did the piston actually rise above the block deck, or did it (as I suspect) remain below the lip of the liner at TDC?

It's definitely below the liner lip, but I don't know by how much. Happy to make that measurement tonight if it would help. Hopefully my engine goes back together this weekend. (grumble)

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:16 pm

I don't need the specific measurement, but it would be interesting to know if the piston actually rises above the deck of the block, even while remaining within the liner. I don't believe that the compression ratio would be altered much at all with such a small variance between the thicknesses of the gasket, but I'd rather have the gasket completely hiding behind the liner if possible... BUT that would mean that the liner is then impacting the bottom of the head.

I wish there were an easy way to put a copper crush washer (obviously a really big diameter and flat style) on top of the liner to create a positive seal with the head.

greiswig · **Posted:** Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:29 pm

I'll take a look and let you know. But the way I read the manual, they expect the piston crown to be higher than the deck by a small amount.

Regarding a copper crush washer, if it were an iron head, yes. My memory is that pure copper is only slightly more malleable than pure aluminum, so I'd be worried about denting the head, and also about bowing it across that stress point down the middle.

And I keep going back to the fact that hey, the gasket design I had worked pretty darn well with lousy bolts at unknown torque values for a long time.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:43 pm

greiswig wrote:

I keep going back to the fact that hey, the gasket design I had worked pretty darn well with lousy bolts at unknown torque values for a long time.

Yeah, that is true. That was mainly why I was leaning toward painting a thin layer of RTV around the cylinder holes on the gasket and letting the compression of the studs do the rest. RTV won't bend the head, but it WILL thin out under compression and just lock up the imperfections that are allowing the hot gasses to escape. Seems the best option.

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:11 pm

greiswig wrote:

Mike,

I'm still a little puzzled by this. My liners definitely protrude above the block more than that: about 1.00mm to 1.30mm depending on the hole. The stock gasket thicknesses are 1.32mm, 1.42mm, and 1.52mm. It looks to me like they're trying to make sure that the compressed gasket thickness is just barely over what the protrusion is, so that the liner acts as a shield for the gasket against the combustion chamber heat.

But you're right, the manual calls specifically for measuring how close the piston is to the block surface.

The measurement is taken on the edge of the liner (on the shoulder rather than the lip). I agree that the factory service manual sucks. Maybe some things were lost in translation from italian.

When my uncle and I put the liners in, we set each one at .03mm above the deck.

I think the MLS head gasket is fine, it's the TTY bolts that suck.

Mike

greiswig · **Posted:** Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:06 am

Mike92104 wrote:

The measurement is taken on the edge of the liner (on the shoulder rather than the lip). I agree that the factory service manual sucks. Maybe some things were lost in translation from italian.

Something may be getting lost in translation in English, too!

I'm not sure what you call lip versus shoulder, but if I'm getting it right, that's not the way I read the manual.

The tool they use would be resting on the protruding part of the liner, well above the block. Then they want you to zero the dial indicator on the "cylinder block mating surface," then move the needle to the piston, above the wrist pin and an 1/8th inch from the edge. That would measure relative height from the block. The illustration seems to show the point on the block is well away from any part of the liner.

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:37 pm

greiswig wrote:

Mike92104 wrote:

The measurement is taken on the edge of the liner (on the shoulder rather than the lip). I agree that the factory service manual sucks. Maybe some things were lost in translation from italian.

Something may be getting lost in translation in English, too!

I'm not sure what you call lip versus shoulder, but if I'm getting it right, that's not the way I read the manual.

The tool they use would be resting on the protruding part of the liner, well above the block. Then they want you to zero the dial indicator on the "cylinder block mating surface," then move the needle to the piston, above the wrist pin and an 1/8th inch from the edge. That would measure relative height from the block. The illustration seems to show the point on the block is well away from any part of the liner.

I wasn't clear. I was talking about measuring the liner protrusion not the piston. That's why the protruding part of the liner is higher than the specified 0.00 - 0.05 mm. The measurement is taken on the shoulder of the liner (the bit that fits into the block that would be under the head gasket).

I hope that makes more sense.

Mike

P.S. I remembered I have pics!

Measuring the Liner (note that my uncle was using his own measuring tool, and not the factory service tool):

http://imageshack.com/a/img661/8512/Yje5XZ.jpg

Measuring the Piston:

http://imageshack.com/a/img661/2182/FC42f9.jpg

greiswig · **Posted:** Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:28 pm

Thanks, Mike! Now I understand what you were saying. Good pics, too.

And it makes sense that they would want to have the shoulder (outer ring) of the liner pretty much dead even with the block, or just slightly above it to ensure a good seal against cylinder pressures.

The inner ring of your liners looks much shorter than mine. On mine, they are about 1-1.3mm above the level of the shoulder. Did you happen to measure yours?

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:52 pm

greiswig wrote:

Thanks, Mike! Now I understand what you were saying. Good pics, too.

And it makes sense that they would want to have the shoulder (outer ring) of the liner pretty much dead even with the block, or just slightly above it to ensure a good seal against cylinder pressures.

The inner ring of your liners looks much shorter than mine. On mine, they are about 1-1.3mm above the level of the shoulder. Did you happen to measure yours?

I didn't, but I still have the old ones.

Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3.

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