Well, you are now a member of the 3 time HG club.
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| Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3. http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=80374 |
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| Author: | racertracer [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3. |
I have a confirmed head gasket leak. This will be my 3 third time on 2 separate vehicles. 1st head gasket leak occurred on my 2005 CRD Limited at 110,000, It was repaired by the dealer and the OEM TTY bolts were used along with a new head gasket. 2nd head gasket leak occurred at 113,000 miles on the same vehicle and it scheduled for the repair again. But never made it to the shop...... it was totaled when a tractor trailer dropped a 40' cargo tarp on I-95 while traveling just ahead of me. I made it out alive. 3rd head gasket leak occurred on the replacement 2005 CRD Sport that I drive everyday with 80,000 miles on it. Confirmed Head gasket leak via visual coolant in the reservoir side of the expansion tank and the exhaust gas tester and the one minute pressure under cap test. So here I go again. |
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| Author: | flman [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3. |
Well, you are now a member of the 3 time HG club.
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| Author: | racertracer [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3. |
Are you a member also? |
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| Author: | flman [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3. |
racertracer wrote: Are you a member also? No your the founder AFAIK? |
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| Author: | geordi [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3. |
Considering that the report from a race engine builder seems to suggest that multi-layer-steel gaskets leak about 75% of the time... I'd say you are par for the course thus far. The member in the other thread (that knew the engine builder) says he is going to try a coating of a sealer between the leaves on his next HG. If this were my own engine, I'd be game to try spreading the leaves a little and wiping some coating in there, either the copper gasket sealer or some RTV red, brushed on with a fine brush and clamped down before it sets up too much. Anything to give it that little bit of extra help. It seems (on the ones that I have worked on) that the main point of leaking is the exhaust side of #3. Between the leaves or between the head and the top of the gasket, either way, that is where the soot crosses. I *really* wish there were a way to fire-ring this engine and seal the cylinders with copper wire crushed between the deck and the head. |
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| Author: | racertracer [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3. |
Get ready Geordi. |
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| Author: | diesel_guy86 [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3. |
If I ever tear my motor back down, I was gonna oring it. Get the raised lip of the liners machined off flat while in the block, and then press fit some .020" stainless wire into a groove machined into the head. I thought fire ringed was where you actually cut out the compression ring of the gasket, and fitted a large solid wire in its place. Is that correct? Here's a pic of a block I had oringed, it can be done to the head or block. 
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| Author: | geordi [ Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3. |
I wasn't specifically aware that modifying the gasket and putting the copper wire in there was a 'fire ring', I had thought it was like you described... BUT either would be an OK solution by me if it was possible. Maybe the head gasket can be trimmed back around the cylinders and the copper wire can be used instead? That was the basic thought I had, but I don't have the engine building experience to know if it would survive the heat / pounding / pressure in that environment. That was where I thought about just wiping some sealer into the leaves and calling it done. Unless someone knows how to have a better head gasket manufactured, maybe out of something single-layer? |
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| Author: | greiswig [ Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3. |
geordi wrote: I wasn't specifically aware that modifying the gasket and putting the copper wire in there was a 'fire ring', I had thought it was like you described... BUT either would be an OK solution by me if it was possible. Maybe the head gasket can be trimmed back around the cylinders and the copper wire can be used instead? That was the basic thought I had, but I don't have the engine building experience to know if it would survive the heat / pounding / pressure in that environment. That was where I thought about just wiping some sealer into the leaves and calling it done. Unless someone knows how to have a better head gasket manufactured, maybe out of something single-layer? Geordi, it may have been me you were referring to before when you were talking about someone spraying a coating on their gasket? If so, I was not planning on doing it between layers. To me, between layers is likely not where the problem is; the Hylomar I'm going to use is principally to help fill in imperfections in the surfacing of the head and the block. Hopefully the clamping force and the viton will be sufficient to keep leaks from between the layers. The engine builder I was talking to seemed to think that the coolant weeping he had to deal with with MLS gaskets had to do with the machining imperfections on those outside surfaces, not the layers. As for fire rings or O-rings, I will say that my MLS gasket seemed to work fine for 130k miles or so, and even then it appears that my leak was caused by the crack in the head, not a leak in the gasket. it may be that a gasket leak caused some hydrolocking that caused a crack, but it's hard to tell because of the condition of the gasket. Should a gasket last more than 130k? Absolutely. Can it be considered a pretty good seal given the apparent lack of torque my head bolts were under (see my specs on the "need your data" sticky thread)? To me, yes. So perhaps idealistically, I'm hopeful that a good gasket, properly torqued with ARP studs and coated with Hylomar for the surface imperfections will be good enough. |
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| Author: | diesel_guy86 [ Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3. |
Funny you said surface imperfections. I had my head machined just a couple thousands to make the surface perfect. I'm running more boost, more fuel, and more heat than the gde hot tune crds run, and I haven't had a single problem. Maybe we could be on to something here? |
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| Author: | greiswig [ Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3. |
diesel_guy86 wrote: Funny you said surface imperfections. I had my head machined just a couple thousands to make the surface perfect. I'm running more boost, more fuel, and more heat than the gde hot tune crds run, and I haven't had a single problem. Maybe we could be on to something here? My head looks good after resurfacing, and the block looks good...except for a couple of places near water jackets where there is some corrosion pitting. Going to be filling that in as best I can. To me, it is just asking a lot of a very thin layer of Viton to really seal perfectly unless both surfaces that it's pressing against are just about glass smooth and flat. I know the gasket makers say to use only on a perfectly clean surface and with no coating, but...it just seems like a recipe for failure. |
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| Author: | geordi [ Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3. |
Greiswig, I think you were the member I was referencing... When you pull yours apart (or if it is already) can you spread the old gasket a bit and have a look between the leaves by the exhaust side of #3? I can't say for certain that we did that on the last head gasket (Doc4444) that I did, but the surface between the head and the top layer DID NOT look great, there was obvious travel between those points of soot. Doc's leak was very minor however, and only under extreme duress of summer towing big loads. I will be documenting the teardown of Racer's engine when I get to that point (scheduling and all that), and as I suspect that his engine is otherwise un-modified, it will be interesting to see what the factory + 80k miles has done to that gasket. Some initial assumptions: IF the internal leaves of the gasket are clean and pretty and show no soot migration, then I am game to leave them be on the new one, and just look at the top and bottom surfaces. I am hoping to only lift the head (Yes, we will remember that oil drip tube) and r/r the gasket from that point. As this is a purely metal to metal contact, anything I might use to scrape / clean the surfaces can only remove metal too, which obviously is not desired. If there is detectable metal scaling, then that will be addressed with some steel wool as before. If the soot tracing is on the top side only, then that will be the primary location for hylomar or some other spray coating. I will probably do the bottom too, just because. ARP studs will be applied, and torque numbers recorded for posterity from yet another factory engine assembly. I know my wrench is accurate, so this will be an interesting check against the other numbers that have been posted previously in that thread. |
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| Author: | flman [ Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3. |
racertracer wrote: Are you a member also? Actually my Sport is pressurizing the bottle, again, I should have put on a new head, considering my wife overheated it more then once. So I ordered one from VM Specialists. I guess I am going to ARP it this time as well. So that leaves me in the 2x club for now. 
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| Author: | geordi [ Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3. |
Please record your bolt torques when you take it apart and post them in the sticky - every data point helps people determine if there is a trend or not. I'd also be interested to hear what you find on the gasket when you pull it out, if there is anything in the layers or if it is just on top / bottom. Thinking about the way the gasket installs... I think that the top, between the gasket and the head, is where the soot should most likely be crossing at the failure points - The bottom and at least some of the leaves should be "shielded" by the top of the cylinder liners, where the top is fully exposed to the combustion chamber's pounding on every cycle. |
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| Author: | WWDiesel [ Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3. |
geordi wrote: If the soot tracing is on the top side only, then that will be the primary location for hylomar or some other spray coating. I will probably do the bottom too, just because. For many years I have used Permatex Copper Spray-A-Gasket Hi-Temp Sealant on every head gasket job I have ever done, gas and diesel. (after thoroughly cleaning or machining the head & block surfaces) It will fill in some slight minor imperfections on the surfaces... Never had one leak afterwards due to a gasket failure when using this type of product. 
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| Author: | geordi [ Sun Oct 12, 2014 11:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3. |
How many were on a CRD?  I'm concerned about milling the head, this thing is REALLY thin already, and the chances of finding or weakening the water jacket if it isn't done right just doesn't seem worth the effort to me. A decent painting of RTV would fill in any imperfections too, and that is really all we are talking about doing. It doesn't have to be thick and gloppy (and shouldn't be) but a layer that is enough to see is probably plenty enough to seal the thing in. |
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| Author: | greiswig [ Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3. |
I was all set to spray coating on my head gasket yesterday and install it, but I decided to think things through a bit more. The manufacturer seems really concerned about the thickness of the gasket relative to the liner protrusions. Adding a coating of anything will increase that. I swear...I look at this gasket design and I think it is a small miracle that it lasted as long as it did. I struggle to figure out how it seals well right at the cylinder. It looks to me like they want that thickness just barely taller than the sleeve protrusions. That keeps you from tightening the head down directly on those sleeves, which would seal really well (maybe) but would undoubtedly stress the heck out of the aluminum at those points. But that means that the combustion gases are bound to get past the little gap between the sleeve and the head, and that leaves only the gasket to keep them in. And that has viton seal on it right at that point. So why don't temperatures and pressures erode that seal in short order? My Unimog diesel (totally different, I know) uses a composite gasket and has steel crimp rings at the cylinders, copper crush rings on hydraulic tunnels. Cylinder sleeves have no protrusions: block and head are supposed to be dead flat. I guess I will end up taking the leap of faith, but it always feels odd putting something together when you don't know how it is supposed to work. |
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| Author: | WWDiesel [ Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3. |
geordi wrote: How many were on a CRD? I'm concerned about milling the head, this thing is REALLY thin already, and the chances of finding or weakening the water jacket if it isn't done right just doesn't seem worth the effort to me. A decent painting of RTV would fill in any imperfections too, and that is really all we are talking about doing. It doesn't have to be thick and gloppy (and shouldn't be) but a layer that is enough to see is probably plenty enough to seal the thing in. None so far, but you never know what the future holds!  Just hope it's not mine!!!  I agree with you on the milling, last resort other than replacing the head assembly with a new one. If I do one though, I will spray it unless I read something on here that changes my way of thinking about this. I do bow to the experts who have the greatest experience working on this odd little beast!!!
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| Author: | geordi [ Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3. |
Greiswig... I'm still unconvinced about this "viton coating" that is supposed to be on the gasket. Let me give you this confidence however: ANYTHING that you spray or paint onto the top and bottom of the gasket will increase the thickness by a matter of UNMEASURABLE differences. They want you using the factory tool to measure protrusion to 3 decimal places, right? Well, a spray coating or even painted RTV will be SQUASHED by the compressive strength of the studs, and squeezed into 5 decimal places or less of room. I would have no problem at all with using either one, and to hell with their nanny-ness about using another sealer. Their method DOESN'T LAST based on practical real-world uses. It is the definition of insanity to keep doing it the same way and expecting a different result. We are on our own anyway, might as well make the results better and more reliable, eh? BTW: The compressive strength of the studs that you are applying? 19,000 PSI. I wouldn't worry about any spray coating. It will be squashed to a few atoms thick, or fill in any imperfections and be trapped in those divots. Spray and play my friend. |
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| Author: | greiswig [ Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Confirmed head Gasket leak Number 3. |
Geordi, I'm not positive it is viton, but I am told by a reliable source that it is a common coating for MLS gaskets. They do have to have some coating, or they will not seal well even with a nearly perfectly machined surface. As for the rest, you are probably right. I went out and looked at my old head, which was not resurfaced...just cleaned...before they found the crack. It looks to me like those cylinder liners actually were in contact with the head. Which just amazes me. That means that it unless you are crushing the aluminum there or bending the head, it seems even less likely for there to be a good seal anywhere else. It also makes me seriously wonder about overtorquing using the ARP studs: if the first incompressible things that hit the head when torquing are those liners, and if the gasket isn't exactly the same thickness, any more torque is either bending the head or pressing the liners up into it. |
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