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 Post subject: What is off road diesel?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:10 pm 
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A gas station near me sells this stuff for $0.50 less than regular diesel. Is it any good?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:35 pm 
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It's tax free diesel for off road farm and construction use. It has red colorant in it that lasts many more tanks than the cheap one you put in. If the Feds or the State find a trace of it in your tank it will cost you much more than the 50 cents a gallon you saved.

Try it though and report back. :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:39 pm 
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It is the same as the regular diesel you use only without the road tax, and it is died red to be able to detect it being used in on road use. It will not hurt the engine or fuel system in anyway, however if you get caught (probably not likely, just depends on your state as they do most of the DOT enforcement. I think they can impound the vehicle and give up to $10,000 fine. I have a friend who works for MODOT enforcement, and they are the guys who check the big diesel trucks. He says and I have read it elsewhere that if you cut the dyed fuel to 20% mix they can not detect it even by their chem treated test rod they stick in the tank. I had always heard it was 30%, but my buddy says it is 25% plus or minus 5%, he says they catch a batch after every spikle in fuel cost.

I have used it with a 20% mix and it was clear in the fuel line clear hose section on the VW.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:07 pm 
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This is from from diesel net about ASTM and Bio-diesel.
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ASTM Standards
The first national biodiesel specification in the USA has been the ASTM standard D 6751, “Standard Specification for Biodiesel Fuel (B100) Blend Stock for Distillate Fuels”, adopted in 2002. The D 6751 standard covers biodiesel (B100) used as a blending component with petroleum diesel fuels. Requirements and test methods of the D 6751 standard are discussed in detail in the Biodiesel Fuel Standards paper.

No standards currently exist in the USA that would cover neat biodiesel (B100) or biodiesel blends for use as automotive fuels. An ASTM specification for B20 blend of 20% biodiesel and 80% of petrodiesel—one of the most common biodiesel blends in the United States—is under development.

In the absence of a national standard, the US military has developed its own specifications for B20 biodiesel blends. B20 meeting the requirements has been approved for use in Army engines and vehicles other than combat and tactical vehicles. The basic specification is defined in the “Commercial Item Description: Diesel Fuel, Biodiesel Blend (B20)” [CID-A-A-59693A, 15 Jan 2004], according to which B20 shall consist of 20±1 % (by vol.) of biodiesel conforming to ASTM D 6751 and a balance of No 2-D or 1-D diesel fuel conforming to ASTM D 975 or to the military specification A-A-52557. The standard further specifies a number of properties and test methods for the B20 blend.

Additional technical requirements are included in solicitations for the purchase of B20 biodiesel blend which are issued periodically by the Defense Energy Support Center (DESC). The military specifications are expected to be superseded by the ASTM standard for B20, when finalized. Notably, the military solicitations typically require that, in the event that a Federal, State, or local environmental requirement is more stringent than the military specification, the contractor shall deliver B20 fuel that complies with the more stringent requirement. The DESC solicitations also require that the B100 product used for blending be EPA registered (in accordance with 40 CFR Part 79, Registration of Fuels and Fuel Additives).

While the CID-A-A-59693A standard does not include a fuel stability specification, it advises against using biodiesel blends that have been stored for longer than six months from the date of manufacture, or which have an acid number of 0.3 mg KOH/g or higher.




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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:38 pm 
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I could see them checking rigs and what not but aside from the guys in this club - I have yet to run into a person who knew my lib was an oil burner. I've had guys at the pumps laugh at me when I pulled up thinking I was just some stooge who didn't know he was in the diesel lane. I've thought about it using it as well but I don't have a gas can to fill up before pouring it into the lib.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:41 am 
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ccattie wrote:
I could see them checking rigs and what not but aside from the guys in this club - I have yet to run into a person who knew my lib was an oil burner. I've had guys at the pumps laugh at me when I pulled up thinking I was just some stooge who didn't know he was in the diesel lane. I've thought about it using it as well but I don't have a gas can to fill up before pouring it into the lib. You be correct about getting caught in a roadside check, but they often watch fuel areas that have offroad fuel at public pump trying to catch the odd PU truck, or local dump truck. I was sweating it once when I came upon a check point for farm trucks running the stuff, but they waved me through in my old '83 MB diesel, I had about a 80% mix of red in the tank. :shock:
-c

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:29 am 
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I have always been told that off road diesel is still the high sulfur fuel that was standard before the early 90's when low sulfur diesel came out. I'll look next time I'm at a place that sells both, but I'm pretty sure the pumps are marked on road, low sulfur, and off road, high sulfur or something similar. Maybe it is different in different parts of the country? I wouldn't put high sulfur fuel in a CRD if they were giving it away. I don't think the EGR would last too long with it. Also, regardless of sulfur content, I think that dye can be detected in the soot long after the fuel is gone. It would be a get out of the warranty free card for DC.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:12 am 
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#2 heating oil and #2 offroad diesel is the same stuff. My old man has filled his pickup, tractor and heated the house on the same tank for over 40 years. No one has ever stopped him on the road to test his fuel tank.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:14 am 
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Goglio704 wrote:
I have always been told that off road diesel is still the high sulfur fuel that was standard before the early 90's when low sulfur diesel came out. I'll look next time I'm at a place that sells both, but I'm pretty sure the pumps are marked on road, low sulfur, and off road, high sulfur or something similar. Maybe it is different in different parts of the country? I wouldn't put high sulfur fuel in a CRD if they were giving it away. I don't think the EGR would last too long with it. Also, regardless of sulfur content, I think that dye can be detected in the soot long after the fuel is gone. It would be a get out of the warranty free card for DC.
The dye can not be detected in the soot, and neither can it damage any engine/fuel components.

I would think most of the off road high (1300 to 1500 ppm) sulfur would be gone by now, it's possible some could still be around but it should be hard to find. There was a time frame for the high sulfur offroad fuel to be completely gone from the fuel supply. The old fuel sulfur content was 1300 to 1500 PPM and current US standard is 350 to 550 PPM for any diesel fuel. Often a seller will call 500 ppm fuel high sulfur and refer to their regular diesel as low sulfur fuel and yet it may be 350 to 550 ppm sulfur content, no law against it as it was always refered to as low sulfur fuel. Hence the term and abrevations LSD (low sulfur (350 to 550 ppm) ULSD 15 to 50 PPM (US standard will be 15 PPM, HSD was 1300 to 1500 PPM for US standard.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:36 pm 
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Chevron has good info in their site about diesel:
"Non-road (e.g. agriculture and construction equipment) diesel must contain a red dye to identify spills and leaks. Beginning June 1, 2006, non-road diesel is not required to contain red dye when it leaves the refinery gate and may be dyed at the distribution terminal. On-road diesel fuel must not contain this red dye."

http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/diesel/general.shtml


Note that our diesel is also known as #2 oil, and there's no chemical difference with furnace oil: only the additives for winter and possible dye as noted above.


You can also find more info on that great site (Chevron again...): http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/diesel/

Hope this helps!

BTW I tried to find other oil number, only found that #6 oil is used in locomotives and generating station... why do i have "heavy" in mind
:roll:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:58 pm 
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blacksmoke wrote:
Chevron has good info in their site about diesel:
"Non-road (e.g. agriculture and construction equipment) diesel must contain a red dye to identify spills and leaks. Beginning June 1, 2006, non-road diesel is not required to contain red dye when it leaves the refinery gate and may be dyed at the distribution terminal. On-road diesel fuel must not contain this red dye."

http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/diesel/general.shtml


Note that our diesel is also known as #2 oil, and there's no chemical difference with furnace oil: only the additives for winter and possible dye as noted above.


You can also find more info on that great site (Chevron again...): http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/diesel/

Hope this helps!

BTW I tried to find other oil number, only found that #6 oil is used in locomotives and generating station... why do i have "heavy" in mind
:roll:
Because it is heavy oil and is sometimes refered to as bunker fuel by old sailor types.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:58 pm 
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Guys, just a thought - if DC does monitor the online forums to see what's going on and what people are doing with their CRD's, it might not be wise to fess up to having used off-road diesel in your vehicle in the past, or tell people how to use it without getting caught, even if it's just an innocent FYI discussion.

Someone higher up at DC might try to put 2 and 2 together to make 5, ie, this person has used off-road diesel, and this person owns a CRD, therefore quid pro quo this person is using fuel that is illegal for road use in their CRD and try to use that as grounds for some type of action, denying warranty, whatever.

Considering that 1 - off-road diesel is illegal for road use, and 2 - they could have a printed hardcopy of your comments here admitting to using it in the past or discusssing how to use it without geting caught, even a good country lawyer would have a tough time fighting that one if they wanted to push it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:56 pm 
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retmil46 wrote:
Guys, just a thought - if DC does monitor the online forums to see what's going on and what people are doing with their CRD's, it might not be wise to fess up to having used off-road diesel in your vehicle in the past, or tell people how to use it without getting caught, even if it's just an innocent FYI discussion.

Someone higher up at DC might try to put 2 and 2 together to make 5, ie, this person has used off-road diesel, and this person owns a CRD, therefore quid pro quo this person is using fuel that is illegal for road use in their CRD and try to use that as grounds for some type of action, denying warranty, whatever.

Considering that 1 - off-road diesel is illegal for road use, and 2 - they could have a printed hardcopy of your comments here admitting to using it in the past or discusssing how to use it without geting caught, even a good country lawyer would have a tough time fighting that one if they wanted to push it.
I guess you could be right, but I don't think something like that would stand up in court. Too much "bragging and bs'ing" on these forums. They would have to catch you in the act, like having it in your fuel tank. I buy the stuff sometimes quite often depending on how much yard trash I need to burn.

Just so you know, the fed's have no enforcement arm for the offroad diesel or overweight enforcement for that matter. They rely on state and local enforcement. Most states tend to put more into weight and vehicle mechanical inspections then watching for offroad fuel use.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:46 pm 
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in Ohio I'm told it's a $2 per gallon capacity of your fuel tank fine if you get caught with it.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:14 pm 
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Ripple wrote:
in Ohio I'm told it's a $2 per gallon capacity of your fuel tank fine if you get caught with it.
If busted with a US DOT offical present with local/state enforcement types, it can include US DOT fines ($1000 is min if I remember correctly) and possible loss of the vehicle.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:23 pm 
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If you get caught it will most likely because someone snitched on you. I can be a little offensive to know that you are paying to keep roads paved and potholes fixed and see some wise*ss getting by scot free. I live in farm country and many of my neighbors run diesel pickups and while I am sure that they have occassional snuck in some off road blend there isn't a one of them that would suggest you do it on a regular basis because they all know someone who has been caught doing it.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:30 pm 
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After Katrina last fall, dyed diesel was sold at the on road pumps around here for a while. Good to know the dye doesn't stay in the soot, but I still wouldn't do it. I would be the first guy they caught with my luck, or the CRD would shut down with a tank full of it. :shock:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:59 pm 
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Goglio704 wrote:
After Katrina last fall, dyed diesel was sold at the on road pumps around here for a while. Good to know the dye doesn't stay in the soot, but I still wouldn't do it. I would be the first guy they caught with my luck, or the CRD would shut down with a tank full of it. :shock:
I have seen red fuel in many a diesel PU and Sprinter vans at local Dodge dealer, still wonder why UPS had dyed fuel. None of the trucks were refused warranty by MB/Dodge for red dye fuel, just contaminated fuel on a few PU's and one Sprinter owned by city that was caused by contaminated fuel, both dirt & water. Dyed fuel is not a cause for warranty denial even when use was illegal.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:16 pm 
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When I worked for International just about every Ford p/u that came in had dyed fuel in it. They-(farmers) also had it in their medium-duty stuff. No one cared or said a word. It just threw me off the first time I encountered it.

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