RAM 5.7L HEMI TC Vane angles vs KJ TC

gmctd · **Posted:** Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:59 am

This is the TC which SUNCOAST and others rework for dragstrip survival at ^8000rpm
- the KJ TC is modified with stronger springs for EURO version
- the increased vane angle of the stock Hemi TC is what will make the KJ more responsive to low end torque
- the KJ EURO TC will be just as slushy as the stock US version
- the Hemi TC was designed for a heavier vehicle with more available power, so survival in the KJ CRD is of no question
- the survival of the KJ version merits no consideration - just put in on the floor in the corner of the garage after you've installed the Hemi version..................

Post subject: Hemi TC installed in 07 KJ CRD - completed Nice improvement

viewtopic.php?p=547899#p547899

Post Subject: The real story behind ATF+4 tranny fluid & Multi-Vehicule Ma
- viewtopic.php?f=5&t=81436

REPEAT HEMI TC PART # QUESTIONS
- 5.7L Hemi TC 04736587AC
- revised front pump 68009879AB

4736587AC (from gmctd's 2007 post. Which when plugged into moparparts,Others, etc, will convert to
R4736587AD. (remanned)

5.7L HEMI 545RFE P52119451AB

5.7L Hemi TC -- 4736587AC
R4736587AD. (remanned) Replaces:4736587AA, 4736587AB, 4736587AC, R4736587AC
new transmission pump - 68009879AB
flat transmission filter - 5013470AD
spin-on transmission filter - 5179267AC
WIX transmission filter set with pan gasket - 58843

OEM-stock Hemi engine specs:
Power (SAE net) 395 hp (291 kW) @ 5,600 rpm
Torque (SAE net) 407 lb.-ft. (548 N•m) @ 3,950 rpm
Max. Engine Speed 5,800 rpm

Hemi TC\C is designed to withstand greater than stock engine output, so is likely rated ~500 lb.-ft.

Even if only rated to 407 lb.-ft., that's still greater than the 300 lb.-ft. rating of the oem factory-installed KJ version

And 7 ft.-lb. more than the EURO version

sp

mass-hole · **Posted:** Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:04 am

This is the route I will be going if I get around to it. So far I have been running the GDE hot tune on the(what I believe is) stock TC with almost no issues. I towed a 5000 lb boat with it on the highway at 70mph and did not have a problem so I am not sure I need to do anything, yet.

Wow they are cheap, $230

gmctd · **Posted:** Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:51 pm

The specific issue addressed by the HEmi TC is:
- oem KJ TC feels like driving a manual-shift with moderate-to-severe clutch slippage in all ranges
- Hemi TC feels like having just replaced the clutch and pressure plate, restoring that new-vehicle non-slip experience

A four-cylinder Diesel, due to tremendous low-end torque, will always impart some 'shudder' (NOT shutter!) to the driveline, mostly at low-rpm operation - to us older and wiser folks, this is known as 'lugging' - only cure is to upshift, which most of you have reported as eliminating the symptom, or\and manually release the TC clutch by tapping the brake pedal - this allows the slushy KJ TC to absorb the shudder (NOT shutter!) - I installed a manual switch for this purpose, opening the TCC-apply wiring - also manually engages the TCC anytime I'm feeling smarter than the EATX TCM ............................

Weather here will soon turn cold and blustery - time to go out and shutter (NOT shudder!) my windows - altho, I may tend to shudder (NOT shutter!) due to wind chill..........................

joelukex4 · **Joined:** Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:54 pm **Posts:** 386

Do you have the Hemi TC? It doesn't state that in your profile.

gmctd · **Posted:** Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:40 pm

Yes - tho, mine was reworked by SUNCOAST at the beginning, when noone knew any option was available - IIRC, SUNCOAST had installed only one (1) in a KJ as test bed, with maybe one other on this forum - this started my research into source and availability (do a search here on SUNCOAST and Hemi TC and the entire drama from beginnings in ought 7 to now will unfold B4 your very eyes............................)

Remember, to harden the Hemi TCC for 450-600hp dragstrip service at up to 8000rpm, SUNCOAST installs kevlar clutch material, a billet drive cover, and some other proprietary stuff - if your stock KJ sees 8000rpm you'll need be prepared for some hospital recovery time

'Nuther words, the oem stock Hemi TC is designed to survive more power than the KJ is capable of producing in upgraded ECM trim - the stock Hemi TCC will survive anything you can do to it , street or\and off-road.

If, however, you've built a twin-turbo 600hp off-road monster KJ, then the additional cost of the SUNCOAST or others is well warranted

I have been building auto-trans since back in the late '60's, when switching from 4-spd with turbochargers to auto-trans with turbochargers to keep the power levels up - manual shifting resulted in turbo rpms dropping into low-output region, then turbo-lag as turbine rpms built back up to produce desired power levels - auto-trans produced no lag, off the line or down-range - TC hookup was of great importance, as here

mass-hole · **Posted:** Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:52 am

gmctd wrote:

Yes - tho, mine was reworked by SUNCOAST at the beginning, when noone knew any option was available - IIRC, SUNCOAST had installed only one (1) in a KJ as test bed, with maybe one other on this forum - this started my research into source and availability (do a search here on SUNCOAST and Hemi TC and the entire drama from beginnings in ought 7 to now will unfold B4 your very eyes............................)

Remember, to harden the Hemi TCC for 450-600hp dragstrip service at up to 8000rpm, SUNCOAST installs kevlar clutch material, a billet drive cover, and some other proprietary stuff - if your stock KJ sees 8000rpm you'll need be prepared for some hospital recovery time

'Nuther words, the oem stock Hemi TC is designed to survive more power than the KJ is capable of producing in upgraded ECM trim - the stock Hemi TCC will survive anything you can do to it , street or\and off-road.

If, however, you've built a twin-turbo 600hp off-road monster KJ, then the additional cost of the SUNCOAST or others is well warranted

I have been building auto-trans since back in the late '60's, when switching from 4-spd with turbochargers to auto-trans with turbochargers to keep the power levels up - manual shifting resulted in turbo rpms dropping into low-output region, then turbo-lag as turbine rpms built back up to produce desired power levels - auto-trans produced no lag, off the line or down-range - TC hookup was of great importance, as here

Wait so your CRD doesnt make 600hp?

In all seriousness though, they dont make any adjustments to the vanes on the Suncoast to suit it better to track duty? Usually you would see a high stall converter for that kind of application and it sounds like the Suncoast CRD is the opposite.

Auberon · **Posted:** Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:30 am

gmctd: Thank you oh so much for the shudder correction!!!been bugging the bajingies outa me (for want of a better phrase).
mass-hole can we keep communicating re this matter. I am on the same path as you.
Cheers

funnyman06 · **Joined:** Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:46 pm **Posts:** 180

Id like to hear more about this. So would a stock hemi TC be an upgrade to the KJ CRD? What are the downsides to this if any? Would there be any reason then to purchase the Euro TC over the Hemi TC?

mass-hole · **Posted:** Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:18 am

funnyman06 wrote:

Id like to hear more about this. So would a stock hemi TC be an upgrade to the KJ CRD? What are the downsides to this if any? Would there be any reason then to purchase the Euro TC over the Hemi TC?

It doesnt sound like there is. The Hemi TC sounds like it has a lower stall speed so it gives you a more direct feel. The engine wont rev as much when the TC is unlocked. The only side effect is maybe more NVH?

gmctd · **Posted:** Thu Oct 23, 2014 1:19 pm

Auberon: it's all done tongue-in-cheek, ala MONTY PYTHON, but glad to impart some recognizably pertinent education in your general direction.......................

Mass-hole, and others - all the required information is in my and other posts on this forum - all that wordy stuff below the pictures is not because the author is being paid by the word, but is to provide information and data in direct reference to the pics - try reading thru the verbiage B4 jumping in and posting already-been-answered questions - saves lotsa time....

However, specifically, the SUNCOAST TC pics can easily be compared to the oem Hemi TC pics in the post to determine any changes in vane angle - I, personally, don't see any, but then I know that if stall speed were addressed, it would be as with other TC modificatons: use the drive and driven turbine from a smaller, lower power engine, as when the TC's from the CHEVY VEGA's were hardened for use as high-stall drag racing converters for the CHEVY 350, 373, 400, 427 small blocks (been there, done that!) - and, the lower-stall small-block converters could be used in the VEGA\MONZA series in street form to eliminate the slush for economy reasons (b-t,d-t, also!)

Thusly, for high-stall applications for the Hemi 5.7L, I would expect to see the drive-turbine angles of the KJ TC, rather than those of the Hemi TC - and, as SUNCOAST intimated at the time, they had little interest in receiving the KJ TC as core return, said TC being unusable in their endeavors

Logically, 2 + 2 always equals 4, so, as the professor suggested, I assumed thus-and-such, applied experience, and resolved to a logical solution

gmctd · **Posted:** Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:00 pm

Secondly:

The agressive forward-facing vane angles in the Hemi housing are what produces the low-stall hookup

The wishy-washy girly-man reverse-facing vane angles in the KJ TC are what produces the higher-stall slush effect, required for low-output engines such as gasser 4-cyls, 6-cyls, and V6's - check DCJ's offerings for the 45RFE and 545RFE in those series and you'll see the identical TC as in the KJ turbocharged CRD 4-cyl - this li'l CRD, which has much higher output starting at low rpm and increasing thru higher rpm, can easily reap the advantages of a lower-stall TC such as the stock oem Hemi version , designed for, and used with, the identical 545RFE transmission as equipped in your KJ;

And, yes, the stator can affect stall speed, but must be coordinated with turbine vane angles for max effectiveness - the stator, of course, being what converted a simple hydraulic fluid coupler to your present day well known, much beloved, and oft confusing Torque Convertor........................................

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:32 pm

gmctd wrote:

.... I installed a manual switch for this purpose, opening the TCC-apply wiring - also manually engages the TCC anytime I'm feeling smarter than the EATX TCM .........................................

How did you do this?
What wires did you splice into?

gmctd · **Posted:** Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:42 pm

Brake lite switch has two (count'em: 2) circuits: one for the brake lites, 'nuther one for the TCC release circuit, intended to instantly release the TCC when braking - switch is connected in that circuit

You can download the FSM with wiring diagrams from the NOOB guide on this forum for specific circuit with correct wire colors

rancherman · **Posted:** Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:34 pm

mass-hole wrote:

This is the route I will be going if I get around to it. So far I have been running the GDE hot tune on the(what I believe is) stock TC with almost no issues. I towed a 5000 lb boat with it on the highway at 70mph and did not have a problem so I am not sure I need to do anything, yet.

Wow they are cheap, $230

yup.^^^^ about 330 delivered to yer door. (core and shipping) Followed gmtd's thread on this from 2007, and I'm assuming since he linked it this week, he's still high on this TC.. Can't see any reason why not!
whynot whynot whynot..
I'm just glad I got the window regs all in this weekend! Both fronts went bad within 36 hours.. Does everyone's sphincter snap when the first "POP" crackles the air... when prying the door panel attaching lugs???? ....Saved em all, no breakage! whoo. I'd rather deliver a breach baby calf!

gmctd · **Posted:** Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:19 pm

Word to the wise: if your KJ has not been F37'ed, you will need the upgraded front pump, pump cover, and seals
- some may have been short-changed by an unscrupulous dealer, getting only the F-37 upgraded TC - those will also require the new pump, cover, and seals
- those with the full upgrade will require only the large o'ring and TC hub seal for the pump cover

Current revision (F37) pump cover is in this photo series - if ya got this, ya got the new pump...............

viewtopic.php?p=255007#p255007

And, here is some well-pleased customer testimonial and longevity data

viewtopic.php?p=547899#p547899

joelukex4 · **Joined:** Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:54 pm **Posts:** 386

What is the US part# for the Hemi TC that is needed. I found the Australian Part# in CRDJON's info but it doesn't convert.

rancherman · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:20 am

joelukex4 wrote:

What is the US part# for the Hemi TC that is needed. I found the Australian Part# in CRDJON's info but it doesn't convert.

4736587AC (from gmctd's 2007 post. Which when plugged into moparparts,Others, etc, will convert to
R4736587AD. (remanned)

Auberon · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:13 am

gmctd - I get that. Thanks.
And thanks for the replies.

My frustration is that I still don't think there is an optimal solution out there.
eg: GDE tunes make max torque and sustain that as follows:
Hot tune maintains a fairly constant Torque of 500 Nm from about 1250 rpm to 2500 rpm
Eco tune maintains a fairly constant Torque of 450 - 460 Nm from about 1650 rpm to 2600 rpm........
and our export Turbos are a little different in behaviour (quicker response to the US versions as they may be slightly bigger) - apparently.
So the low down Torque that is available is almost wasted.

eg most of my cruising is done at 80 km/hr (50 mph) and the faster legal stuff is 68 mph (or 0.089Mach :ROTFL:

)
so it is not really done in the most economical manner.
One has to be ever so slightly speeding to stay in lock up which keeps is at 1625 rpm or there-abouts

When viewing these curves it's easy to see why the TC tolerates the ECO tune and the stock tune for, well longer . The increase in Torque is relatively gradual when compared to the almost vertical curve for the Hot tune.
With the Hot tune Torque snaps from around 300 Nm to 500 Nm in the space of 500 rpm whereas both of the other tunes follow a more 45 degree - proportional increase. This is why the TC's -as supplied will last a while. Torque increase is gradual over this "new, improved, response curve so it is easier on the TC than the hot tune.

With respect to GDE I belive if their numbers are correct, the curves have been rather "softened" to make them run parallel and more softly. When I drove the tunes after finally purchasing them, I did feel the relative snap to high torque of the Hot tune. I plan to verify this using Speedtracer - the Rolling Chassis Dynamometer one gets when AE is purchased. At nearly 60 y.o. I've been driving too long with conservative habits to imagine this and in all candour, the numbers bear me out.

I think there needs to be a TC that will sustain this relative "snap" to max torque. Lets face it jumping to max Torque in the space of 500 rpm is fairly quick for a little diesel like this. The other tunes get to max value over the space of 1000 rpm.
Just a note that all numbers are approximate from an old set of values but indicative.

Editing the shift pattern by sending the transmission controller to the local rep is not on the agenda yet....I don't think - however, I don't believe this to be the best answer.

I like the Hot tune and want to run it. Driveability is tons more friendly. I am tolerating the Eco tune now but it is a second rate choice.

There has to be a better way and I have followed the discussions on this since joining at about the same time as you did - I do not recall it discussed in quite this manner. Perhaps I can be pointed in a better direction.

Building a more direct connection lower down in the rev range is what I think needs to be done.
Please excuse this. It's not tongue in cheek. It is the problem as I see it.

The TC is indeed a girly man add-on unit like many other aspects of this little brick that could've been great.
Cheers

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:55 am

A revisited scrutiny of the turbine impeller blade curves in the Hemi TC as compared to the total lack of curvature in the KJ TC should reveal the solution you are seeking - further proof could be realized by contacting crdjon for a real-time drive-thru in an actual streeted specimen

SUNCOAST aparts the oem Hemi TC, brazes the drive\driven turbine blades to the covers, machines a new drive cover from 'billet' steel with much improved TCC surface, re-surfaces the TC clutch with KEVLAR friction material, reworks the stator (oem KJ stator is of molded thermo-plastic, from all accounts - the KJ TC was borrowed intact from DCJ's gasoline-fueled 4- and V6-cyl engine line-up), and some other proprietary stuff.

Scope and intent? A TC which will survive repeated full-throttle runs in a quarter-mile venue behind an 8000rpm 450^hp thrust-monster :frankie:

- and live to tell the tale - again...and again...and again...and..well, you get the drift, eh?

No such demands are made by the KJ CRD, even in upgraded ECM trim - the oem factory Hemi TC, designed for a higher torque, higher horsepower, higher rpm engine is more than suitable in this application, with increased hydraulic hookup that lowers stall speed to a range more suitable for this Diesel engine, standard aluminum stator that easily handles the increased Diesel torque at low rpm - and possibly other good stuff that I haven't had opportunity for hands-on, having not seen an aparted unit butcept in pictures.

Try it - you'll like it.......................

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

The torque curves for GDE tunes are done on a dyno, where we can hold rpm constant and snap a measurement once the engine has stabilized. In real life driving this is not feasible as the converter is slipping and passes through the rpm band quicker than the turbo can spool. The turbo lag is why you notice the kick in the pants.

I would have to ask the engineers at Chrysler about the hemi TC. That was plan of record at the start of the KJ program development. However, the converter was changed to a 150k stall with a 2.3 multiplication ratio. Sorry for the terminology, that is what the designers used. I am fairly sure the hemi TC had a 180 or 200k stall. We do not use a "stall speed" in rpm, since this is dependent on engine output horsepower. The k factor eliminates hp from the equation.

One of the reasons for the design change was due to the diesel torsionals in a 4-cylinder engine, which are considerably higher than the V8 hemi in the 1400-2300 rpm range.

RAM 5.7L HEMI TC Vane angles vs KJ TC

Who is online