Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Nov 30, 2014 7:59 pm

gmctd wrote:

Either way, I recommend returning the CDR hose to original location

And, consider adding a ProVent in the CCV hose, your motor will thank you for it!!!! :mrgreen:

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:00 am

I've got the Provent and I like that it has a pressure relief valve - don't think it's ever gone off though.

however there were also some nice homemade version's

this was Chrispitude's

I think the size is better for the CRD and the engine compartment.

Auberon · **Posted:** Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:51 am

I found a few coins in one of my deeper pockets and thought I'd offer them for flipping. Heads or tails?
Few facts:
The Vane Style Vacuum pump is gear driven off the crankshaft in a slightly higher ratio than 1:1 (turns slightly faster than C/shaft).
As a result total vacuum within the c/case are specified to be 700 mm Hg @ idle.
Given that the vacuum vane pump is driven directly proportionately to engine rpm the oil mist should not be problematic as the Oil Separator and this vacuum situation should resolve it.
Pressure at the Oil Separator is/should be a negative value at all times over idle: ie >700mm Hg.

So what is the actual causal mechanism?
I propose that Valve timing is possibly the primary culprit........
Intake Valve opening at 15.6 deg ATDC
Intake valve closes at 64.4 deg ABDC
Exhaust valve opens @ 66 deg BBDC
Exhaust valve closes @ 32 deg ATDC
each +/- 2 deg....
Propose that the real source of oil mist prefer that term is Valve overlap
This assumes, of course I have drawn my valve timing chart correctly.

Question is WHY HAVE THE PUCK?
Speculation:
There is valve overlap whereby the Intake valve is in the process of opening as it approaches 16 degrees ATDC whilst AT THE SAME TIME the exhaust valve remains quite open even if starting to close as it approaches 32 deg ATDC.

That leaves a valve overlap of some 16 degrees whereby there is oil mist being pressurised at a rate that overcomes the vacuum engineered into the system with the aid of the turbocharger being drawn through the Exhaust side rocker cover via the puck.
I propose it would gum up very quickly without the Oil Separator removing some of the mist although flow in the positive direction to be successful as a centrifugal separator is totally inadequate without the action of the turbocharger overcoming all resistance of the engineered vacuum system.

Why not just blank it off? This would make the engine very high maintenance given it is not naturally aspirated so the designers are trying to keep the oil mist in a stream heading for combustion with the aid of the turbocharger drawing it through the oil separator and into the intake for recombustion. The designers did not care if the CAC blocks up. Just buy a new one or get it cleaned - good for spare parts sales.

If one were not too concerned about having the rocker cover off after every 100 000 miles it wouldn't be a problem but this is a REAL issue to a normal car owner/operator. To an extent the oil mist also acts as a lubricant (except for that EGR gremlin already mooted herein). This was probably an unexpected add-on due to California Law so they could sell the car there for a start (among several other pollution related tack-ons that have plagued we owners of this car). The sudden impact of that very untimely flood of Emissions control legislation has plagued all of us who own this car that could.
Thankfully, many of us have solved the carbon laden EGR situation with the help of GDE as we could afford to do so.

WHAT DOES THE PUCK ACTUALLY DO?
More speculation: Quite possibly the oil separator acts as a pressure relief (or more correctly an over-vacuum regulator) protection and NOT as a true oil separator. That flap valve should be pulled open with increased engine revs. or in an emergency over-vacuum. It is a possibility it has multiple functions including the return of recovered coalesced oil.

ORIGIN OF OIL MIST:
The Issue that can't be changed easily is the valve timing and overlap. I believe that is the real cause of our issue with the combined efforts of four pistons (1-3-4-2) experiencing injection events and corresponding valve overlap events causes the oil mist issue is the 16 - 32 ATDC region.

FINAL POINT regarding opening the system as in an EHM rather than leaving it a closed system is not such a good idea given the vacuum situation I've outlined.

gmctd · **Posted:** Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:02 pm

The vacuum pump in the crankcase supplys upwards of 25"HG vacuum to operate the accessories:
- power brakes - HVAC - turbocharger vane actuator - EGR actuator - etc
- it is crank-driven to supply the large volume required by the power-brake booster
- pump exhaust-flow exists only when some device is activated and equalizes toward atmospheric pressure

Has absolutely nothing to do with Closed Crankcase Ventilation and Crankcase Depression Regulation
- vacuum for this purpose is derived from the varying depression levels at the exhaust-gas turbine-driven compressor inlet, functioning to draw the vapors into the engine for combustion, therein
- vacuum here varies up to ~15"HG at full BOOST - dirty air-filter increases vacuum levels
- the low vacuum level required for crankcase evacuation is regulated by the "puck", which is a Crankcase Depression Regulator device, also containing a centrifugal oil-slinger, intended to remove excess oil from the effluent vapors, returning the liquid back to the crankcase

Valve overlap, usually seen only in hi-rpm racing engines, is designed-in for one specific purpose: allows exiting exhaust-gasses to draw fresh air into the cylinder, ensuring complete combustion of next fuel charge
- this is known as the ram-air effect, or ram-effect, at mid-to-hi rpm, as the fresh-air charge rushes into the cylinder
- valve overlap is almost never used in normally-aspirated Diesel engines because of low-rpm operating range
- this overlap concept becomes highly efficient in turbocharged engines at any rpm because BOOST pressure then blows the cylinder clean of any residual exhaust-gasses which would dilute and reduce the oxyen content of the incoming fresh-air charge
- reduced oxygen in a Diesel engine = reduced power with black smoke
- the 'over-lapped' turbo-Diesel engine does not "lope" at idle like a racing engine because all required fuel is injected into a full cylinder of air at the top of the compression stroke
- valve overlap does not contribute to crankcase effluent

Oil misting is greatly increased in a Diesel engine in which pressurized engine-oil is sprayed directly on the underside of the piston-crown, which is directly exposed to combustion temperatures, thus cooling the piston for the next combustion event
- this super-heated oil then drops down thru the rotating crank assembly, which thrashes the oil into mist, adding to the normally-misted vapors evaporating from hot-oil in the oil pan

Exascerbating this is the return-oil from the turbocharger cartridge, which is a highly-aerated froth at near exhaust-gas temperatures, easily vaporizing as it oozes into the open area of the crankcase

Remember, here: VM sold countless millions of this engine in normally-aspirated form for taxi and commercial use in foreign markets
- JEEP bought the turbocharged version
- it would seem the CDR puck was upgraded for turbocharger use by the simple expedient of decreasing the diaphragm compliance-rating (stiffening) and increasing the helper-spring tension in order to meet the increased vacuum at the compressor intake as compared to the minimal levels in the normally-aspirated intake system

The entire camshaft-valvetrain assembly is lubricated with pressurized engine-oil and is not dependent on crankcase oil- misted vaporization
- crankcase vapors effluent is not wanted or needed
- they are simply the result of evaporating hot oil, rotating-assembly splashing, reciprocating-assembly transiting, and the small amount of blowby that gets past the specifically-designed Diesel piston compression-rings that have no end-gap (only the oil-wiper ring has end-gap - some Diesel pistons required three (3) compression rings to reduce blow-by - low-tension gapless compression-rings were created to reduce the required number and reduce cylinder-wear )
- valve overlap does not contribute to crankcase effluent

Correct, and agreed: the Diesel CCV\CDR concept absolutely requires that no part be open to atmospheric pressure

Edited lo, these many times, for clarity and syntax

Auberon · **Posted:** Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:31 am

Dang I left out sentences to do with the accessory drive etc. That was why I put it there. T'say jus' 'at. That'll learn me to write late at night.
You are correct of course, pre-empting my instalment II.
I shall just shuddup as I appear to be always wrong or expressing inadequately.

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:35 am

No, don't even do that - it is for fun and to learn :mrgreen:

Besides, I'm always astonished at the stuff that has stuck inside my head in the past 65yrs (beginning when I was 10) - sometimes I just sit around and marvel at what inferred questions like yours can shake outta my ole moth-eaten brain-cells....................

I do appreciate your posting the valve-timing numbers - I've seen them somewhere B4, just don't recall where

tonydduramax · **Joined:** Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:24 pm **Posts:** 5

ProVent 200 found this site didn't see a post showing where to find one, at a good price
http://www.diesel-filters.com/393107055 ... f-highway/

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed May 06, 2015 10:43 pm

Yep, that is where I got mine. Best price around.... :wink:

mass-hole · **Posted:** Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:50 pm

Question: would you even want the capture oil in a provent to flow back to the crankcase? Maybe this engine is magical, but the catch can on my f150 collects WAY more than just oil. There is gasoline, combustion byproducts and all sorts of nasty stuff. I drained it into a Solo cup one time and left it sitting for a few minutes and it melted through the cup which tells me it's not just good old 5w-30

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mass-hole · **Posted:** Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:04 pm

Also, other that price, why use a provent vs something like RX products catch can. I use this on my f150 and it seems to work very well. I get a few ounces every 1000 miles and it helped reduce the smell of gasoline in my oil that I had on my first couple of oil changes to almost 0. They tell you to put it in front of the radiator which I assume is an effort to cool the crankcase flow as it enters the can and get it to condense. People say they get a lot more stuff in the winter months than the hot summer.

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Yeti · **Posted:** Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:11 am

I think your F150 is a big engine with more tollerance and probably not the right oil weight

but is my think

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:35 pm

mass-hole wrote:

Also, other that price, why use a provent vs something like RX products catch can. I use this on my f150 and it seems to work very well. I get a few ounces every 1000 miles and it helped reduce the smell of gasoline in my oil that I had on my first couple of oil changes to almost 0. They tell you to put it in front of the radiator which I assume is an effort to cool the crankcase flow as it enters the can and get it to condense. People say they get a lot more stuff in the winter months than the hot summer.Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Why ProVent? ProVent filters canisters have a built in safety (relief valve) that will open if the filter ever becomes clogged for any reason and allows any positive pressure to build up in the filter/motor/CCV system and possibly blow out a seal like what can happen when an EHM hose freezes and blows seals. :wink:

A valid concern to run a ProVent vs something else!!!! :SOMBRERO:

thermorex · **Posted:** Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:09 am

WWDiesel wrote:

mass-hole wrote:

Also, other that price, why use a provent vs something like RX products catch can. I use this on my f150 and it seems to work very well. I get a few ounces every 1000 miles and it helped reduce the smell of gasoline in my oil that I had on my first couple of oil changes to almost 0. They tell you to put it in front of the radiator which I assume is an effort to cool the crankcase flow as it enters the can and get it to condense. People say they get a lot more stuff in the winter months than the hot summer.Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Why ProVent? ProVent filters canisters have a built in safety (relief valve) that will open if the filter ever becomes clogged for any reason and allows any positive pressure to build up in the filter/motor/CCV system and possibly blow out a seal like what can happen when an EHM hose freezes and blows seals. :wink:

A valid concern to run a ProVent vs something else!!!! :SOMBRERO:

There are various other producers of catch cans that have pressure valve. I still like provent. It just works. It is proven. Why get anything else? At least I know I won't, especially for a diesel.

Johndeere87 · **Posted:** Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:55 pm

I am probably going to buy a provent soon, seeing as I have the dreaded EHM. After reading all this, I am curious. Did y'all come to an agreement on where exactly it should be drained to?

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:25 pm

Attach a hose to the bottom of the provent and put a valve on the end of it.
Drain it periodically.

mass-hole · **Posted:** Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:48 pm

WWDiesel wrote:

mass-hole wrote:

Also, other that price, why use a provent vs something like RX products catch can. I use this on my f150 and it seems to work very well. I get a few ounces every 1000 miles and it helped reduce the smell of gasoline in my oil that I had on my first couple of oil changes to almost 0. They tell you to put it in front of the radiator which I assume is an effort to cool the crankcase flow as it enters the can and get it to condense. People say they get a lot more stuff in the winter months than the hot summer.Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Why ProVent? ProVent filters canisters have a built in safety (relief valve) that will open if the filter ever becomes clogged for any reason and allows any positive pressure to build up in the filter/motor/CCV system and possibly blow out a seal like what can happen when an EHM hose freezes and blows seals. :wink:

A valid concern to run a ProVent vs something else!!!! :SOMBRERO:

How come the only place I ever hear people worrying about CCV hoses freezing is here? Every other forum I have ever been on discussing catch cans and CCV's this has never been an issue. Like I said, all of the F150 Ecoboost catch can kits ive seen put the catch can and some of the hosing directly behind the grille in front of the radiator. Not once have I heard of someone freezing their CCV lines and those kits dont have a pressure relief valve. I would imagine if you just started your truck and started cruising down the road on a -20F night and had a big can of CCV condensate sitting out in the wind, that would be when it would freeze.

I cant imagine a mixture of fuel, oil, combustion products and some water would ever freeze in normal earthly temperatures.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:56 pm

mass-hole wrote:

WWDiesel wrote:

mass-hole wrote:

Also, other that price, why use a provent vs something like RX products catch can. I use this on my f150 and it seems to work very well. I get a few ounces every 1000 miles and it helped reduce the smell of gasoline in my oil that I had on my first couple of oil changes to almost 0. They tell you to put it in front of the radiator which I assume is an effort to cool the crankcase flow as it enters the can and get it to condense. People say they get a lot more stuff in the winter months than the hot summer.Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Why ProVent? ProVent filters canisters have a built in safety (relief valve) that will open if the filter ever becomes clogged for any reason and allows any positive pressure to build up in the filter/motor/CCV system and possibly blow out a seal like what can happen when an EHM hose freezes and blows seals. :wink:

A valid concern to run a ProVent vs something else!!!! :SOMBRERO:

How come the only place I ever hear people worrying about CCV hoses freezing is here? Every other forum I have ever been on discussing catch cans and CCV's this has never been an issue. Like I said, all of the F150 Ecoboost catch can kits ive seen put the catch can and some of the hosing directly behind the grille in front of the radiator. Not once have I heard of someone freezing their CCV lines and those kits dont have a pressure relief valve. I would imagine if you just started your truck and started cruising down the road on a -20F night and had a big can of CCV condensate sitting out in the wind, that would be when it would freeze.
I cant imagine a mixture of fuel, oil, combustion products and some water would ever freeze in normal earthly temperatures.

Does the f150 have a vacuum pump exhausting continuously into the engine cavity like the VM motor does?
I do not worry so much about the freezing aspect in my part of the country, but I do understand the need for the slightly negative pressure provided by the suction of the turbo inlet on the CCV system. I actually ran an EHM myself for a while early on, but I did not like all the visible smoke vapors coming out of the EHM when I pulled up to a stop at idle (also not good for the environment)... :roll:

I even had one guy point out to me in a parking lot and tell me my car was smoking!!! :ROTFL:

I remember someone on LOST a year a two back reporting their EHM mode hose froze and blew out their rear main engine seal. :shock:

You do not want positive pressure to build up inside the engine block, bad things can happen! A good reason for a pressure relief valve on the ProVent system!

If you want to run an EHM, it's your vehicle, do as you please, it is just not for me and I think there are others on this forum of the same opinion who would advise against it based on all the information we are now aware of!!!
To each his own, you are your own warranty.... :wink:

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:22 pm

I kinda find it hard to believe that a 3/4" ID EHM hose would freeze up.
But what do I know, I live in florida.
And yes, I use a provent.

Gasser engines like the EcoBoost:
Pretty much all gassers has some sort of a PCV system. Usually it consists of a PCV valve somewhere in the V of the block or on the valve cover, and a open breather somewhere.
The PCV hose is connected somewhere on the back side of the throttle plate.
The breather hose is connected somewhere between the air filter and front side of the throttle plate.
Its supposed to be a closed system.
Engine vacuum from the behind the throttle plate pulls the PCV valve open and draws crankcase vapors into the intake manifold.
The breather allows fresh filtered air to be drawn into the crankcase.
Again, its supposed to be a closed system so there should be nowhere for anything to freeze up.
Also, its very common for turbocharged gasoline engines to have lots of vapor pass through the PCV. Its not unique to the ecoboost.

Similarities and differences with our CRD engine:
Our CRD engine doesn't have a throttle plate for producing vacuum. Instead it relies on suction provided by the turbo inlet.
Our engine doesn't have a breather inlet into the crankcase.
Our engine does have a valve in the CCV that functions similarly to a PCV valve.

BTW, the pressure/relief valves in the provent function exactly the same (if not better) than the valve in the CCV. So, if you are using the provent you could remove the little flapper valve and spring inside the CCV.

rankom · **Posted:** Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:11 pm

reason why it freezes up is because people are stuffing too much steel wool into home made PROVENT, i made plumping pipe look like an umbrella handle so works good, oil can not go over and make that mess on drive way , but it does go into frame rail so there are some fumes like WW diesel explained , same think like cummins 5.9 12 valve , blow by system , i don't have a problem at any temperature . and my Home Depot pipe is open all the time and size is 1/2 inch .

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:54 pm

Y'all may consider me off-topic, but I found a technicality issue with one part of gmctd's dissertation.

Quote:

Valve overlap, usually seen only in hi-rpm racing engines, is designed-in for one specific purpose: allows exiting exhaust-gasses to draw fresh air into the cylinder, ensuring complete combustion of next fuel charge (TRUE)
- this is known as the ram-air effect, or ram-effect, at mid-to-hi rpm, as the fresh-air charge rushes into the cylinder (TRUE)
- valve overlap is almost never used in normally-aspirated Diesel engines because of low-rpm operating range (TRUE)
- this overlap concept becomes highly efficient in turbocharged engines at any rpm because BOOST pressure then blows the cylinder clean of any residual exhaust-gasses which would dilute and reduce the oxygen content of the incoming fresh-air charge (Sometimes, but not in our case and especially not in stock form, for two reasons.)
- 1) CRD is not a high rpm engine. At least not high enough to make effective use of the ram effect.
- 2) The presence and effect of the EGR system completely negates the ram effect, in fact swings it back the other way. Since the EGR exhaust is ported pre-turbo, the higher the boost/rpm range at which the engine is operating, the higher the exhaust manifold back pressure, (pre-turbo). This introduces FAR more exhaust gas into the intake air charge, via EGR, while at the same time preventing the exhaust, (cleaning), portion of the ram effect from happening at all. In fact the whole point of the EGR is to reduce clean air (oxygen) in the combustion chamber in order to lower combustion efficiency, temperature, to lower NOx emissions, unburnt fuel carbon be damned. :furious:

which I'm pretty certain you already know.
- reduced oxygen in a Diesel engine = reduced power with black smoke (TRUE, unless the fuel delivery is properly tuned for that factor) (Thanks, GDE!)
- the 'over-lapped' turbo-Diesel engine does not "lope" at idle like a racing engine because all required fuel (which is comparably tiny) is injected into a (very excessively) full cylinder of air at the top of the compression stroke
- valve overlap does not contribute to crankcase effluent. (TRUE)

I know I'm probably pickin nits, because most of us that legally can, have disabled or removed the EGR system, in which case the vast majority of your original statement is correct, in both clarity and syntax. :wink:

Cheers!

Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby

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