Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby

mass-hole · **Posted:** Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:51 pm

Bushman5 wrote:

WWDiesel wrote:

Bushman5 wrote:

all right...tonight i removed the hose after my catch can, shortened it and re-plugged it BACK into the turbo inlet hose where it came from.

I DO NOT like the crankcase fumes (acids......etc) re-entering the system.....but i will concede....

I still find it interesting that my work truck....with a BIG Cummins inline 6 diesel, has nothing more than a 3/4" ID draft tube...............and it has 6 mil plus KM's on it....and never had a seal leak....

That Cummins is 16 liters BIGGER than these little CRD engines. One would think that 3/4" ID hose EHM would be more than enough to vent fumes and prevent seal blowout....considering that the same 3/4" ID hose EHM is used on a commercial diesel engine 16 liters BIGGER!

I agree on the Cummins as I also own one that came from the factory with just a simple metal crankcase vent tube on the front of the motor pointed to the ground; no recapture, nothing fancy, basic old school design...

I do believe the huge difference between the 4 cyl. VM engine and the big Cummins 6 is design and seal quality. The VM engine was designed by their engineers to have the turbo inlet suction pulling on the CCV and this may be partly due to the internal vacuum pump discharging continuously into the crankcase. Whereas the big Cummins engines vacuum pump is external and does not discharge into the engine's crankcase and I suspect the oil seals on the Cummins are much more robust due to the design of not having any negative crankcase influences on them in the crankcase... :roll:

An EHM is just simply not worth the risks and / or consequences along with the possible financial costs that could be incurred!!! :2cents:

OK, now that makes a lot of sense to me, and perhaps thats what I missed on VM engine...I swore i thought it had an external vac pump that discharged externally......now i can see why the seals on the VM can blow out. (my bad)

jws84_02 wrote:

How did the the ccv puck cause $9000 in damage?

PO left the factory CCV in place. The CAC hoses, turbo inlet hose, , intercooler, FCV, EGR, intake elbow , were completely sludged and coked up. Despite the PO's frequent oil changes, the intake and valves and valve cover were sludged heavily and coked up with soot , enough that rockers popped off.

I also live in Canada, where repairs and parts and machining are triple to quadruple what it costs in the USA. All the parts had to be ordered from ID Parts, and the USD to CDN exchange range was pretty bad. I also had the water pump and timing belt done at the same time.

That's weird because I just replaced my rockers for preventative maintenance reasons and the underside on the manifold and top of the head were nearly spotless.

mass-hole · **Posted:** Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:52 pm

MM53 wrote:

I have been running EHM for over 73k all good

Yeah mine was on 50 something k and was always fine.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:49 pm

Quote:

PO left the factory CCV in place. The CAC hoses, turbo inlet hose, , intercooler, FCV, EGR, intake elbow , were completely sludged and coked up. Despite the PO's frequent oil changes, the intake and valves and valve cover were sludged heavily and coked up with soot , enough that rockers popped off.
A very common problem if all OEM systems are left in place and functioning!!!

CCV's by themselves do not cause an engine to sludge up in the intake!!! The sludge (soot mud pies) is caused from the exhaust soot being dumped into the intake manifold by the stupid EGR system where it mixes with the incoming internal engine oil vapors coming from the CCV system where they combine and make sludge. :roll:

Get rid of the EGR system as many have done or simply install a blank off plate on the EGR feed tube to ensure absolutely no more exhaust soot can be dumped into the intake manifold where it makes the soot sludge pies.
The Weeks elbow kit (https://shop.sasquatchparts.com) is an excellent way to get rid of ALLthat EGR stupid junk!

A little bit of history on the EHM for newer members, to help them understand where all of this came from:

It was figured out early on (years ago) that getting the oil vapors out of the intake air stream would stop the soot sludge build up since the EGR was dumping soot into the intake where the two would mix together and make sludge.
So, the general consensus at that time was that by removing the CCV hose out of the turbo intake boot (EHM) it would prevent the possible sludge build up.
Some were trying to keep the EGR feed electronically closed by unplugging the MAF sensor, installing a tune, SEGR mod, or mechanically by simply blocking off the EGR feed tube.

Then came alone the Weeks Elbow Kit which allowed the complete removal of the entire EGR system including the EGR valve, the EGR cooler, the FCV, and all associated plumbing attached to them. Then the tuners were able to provide us with updated tunes that removed the DTC's warnings that were triggered for the unplugged EGR & FCV parts.

Through all of this we learned that doing the EHM mod could cause some other serious issues due to the engine being designed and needing to have the negative pressure sucking on the CCV from the turbo inlet suction to function properly. We also learned the internal vacuum pump was discharging into the engine crankcase where it was adding to the CCV discharge flow.
So, with the advent of all of this knowledge, many of us who had been running the EHM mod opted to place the CCV discharge hose back into the turbo intake boot. To keep most of the oil vapors out of the intake air stream and to keep from rotting out the turbo rubber intake boot, which was a very common problem on these engines, many of us installed a ProVent coalescing filter or a similar type filtering device.
And that is where some of us are today....

If I missed anything or stated something wrong, jump in!

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

BUMP... this is an important topic for me as I live in a very cold climate. I believe that an Elephant Hose Modification may be a very bad move on my part.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:04 pm

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

BUMP... this is an important topic for me as I live in a very cold climate. I believe that an Elephant Hose Modification may be a very bad move on my part.

X2
EHM is bad and there are sound rational reasons why one should not be running an EHM mod as explained in earlier parts of this thread! :roll:

We have also learned that there is NO tune that will completely 100% guarantee and / or prevent exhaust soot from being dumped into the intake to mix with the incoming oil vapors where it will make large amounts of sludge not to mention what it does to the internals of the engine... The only sure way to guarantee NO soot enters the intake is to either blank off the EGR feed tube or totally remove the entire EGR system by installing a Week's (Sasquatch) elbow kit...

A Provent filter will keep the oil out of the intake system, but not the oil vapors which is a super bad combo if the EGR system is not blanked off or totally removed... :wink:

HER_CRD · **Posted:** Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:36 pm

I live in a cold climate here also with our coldest this season so far being lows of -20. What has anyone who has installed the Prevent done to protect from freezing? I work for a John Deere engine distributor as an engineer. The guidelines Deere has for installing crankcase vents say the upper plumbing needs to have a downward slope of something like a 1/4" per foot. I can verify for anyone interested.

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:28 pm

HER_CRD wrote:

I live in a cold climate here also with our coldest this season so far being lows of -20. What has anyone who has installed the Prevent done to protect from freezing? I work for a John Deere engine distributor as an engineer. The guidelines Deere has for installing crankcase vents say the upper plumbing needs to have a downward slope of something like a 1/4" per foot. I can verify for anyone interested.

I do not live in a super cold area, but my thoughts on your question:

----Unlike a tractor where ancillary items can be exposed to external elements.

PZKW108 · **Joined:** Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:23 pm **Posts:** 461

HER_CRD wrote:

I live in a cold climate here also with our coldest this season so far being lows of -20. What has anyone who has installed the Prevent done to protect from freezing? I work for a John Deere engine distributor as an engineer. The guidelines Deere has for installing crankcase vents say the upper plumbing needs to have a downward slope of something like a 1/4" per foot. I can verify for anyone interested.

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk

I reroute some of my webasto exhaust near the provent unit, so if it's -40 , I will generally run the webasto for like an hour. you can usually see the snow or frost melting on the hood.

I think there is a member here how blew some seal from a frozen provent ( B.C. Canada , cold and humid )
I wouldn't take the chance !

Bushman5 · **Joined:** Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:05 am **Posts:** 276

I still don't get how i ran a EHM thru a Moroso catch catch for over 73,000 KM's plus with ZERO effect on the Mains Seals...

Hard driving, heavy cargo (12,00 lbs payload in back seats, floor, cargo deck and hatch area). Hi speed lo speed, 4x4, 4lo, 2wd, slow fast , icy cold weather, hot weatehr, hillclimbs...etc...

I did plumb it back into the turbo hose after this thread started, but..........

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:10 am

Could have to do with tolerance stacking in the manufacturing process. Where this is concerned, you got a good one. Someone with looser fitting parts may have had a failure under the same circumstances.

Bushman5 · **Joined:** Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:05 am **Posts:** 276

could we remove the CCV PUCK, and replace with two 90 deg elbows, with two hoses, going into a Y fitting, and then thru the catch can or Provent and back into the turbo hose?

im thinking getting rid of that flap and spring (hell the entire puck) would allow faster flow and evacuation of the crankcase pressures and gasses etc .....more flow so to speak......

thoughts?

something like this: (i can't draw. this is as good as it gets)

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:19 am

The resonant pulses of the crankcase go both ways, so the flap actually performs an important function of preventing back-flow which would increase effective pressure inside the crankcase more than the flap does.

Edit: I'm not telling you what to do, I'm just throwing that out so if you do try it, be aware that a bad result is still a valid result, and replacing rear main seals makes an expensive experiment.

Bushman5 · **Joined:** Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:05 am **Posts:** 276

ah gotcha.....thank you very much.

actually that makes a lot of sense to me now......

thanks

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

WWDiesel wrote:

Quote:

PO left the factory CCV in place. The CAC hoses, turbo inlet hose, , intercooler, FCV, EGR, intake elbow , were completely sludged and coked up. Despite the PO's frequent oil changes, the intake and valves and valve cover were sludged heavily and coked up with soot , enough that rockers popped off.
A very common problem if all OEM systems are left in place and functioning!!!

CCV's by themselves do not cause an engine to sludge up in the intake!!! The sludge (soot mud pies) is caused from the exhaust soot being dumped into the intake manifold by the stupid EGR system where it mixes with the incoming internal engine oil vapors coming from the CCV system where they combine and make sludge. :roll:

Get rid of the EGR system as many have done or simply install a blank off plate on the EGR feed tube to ensure absolutely no more exhaust soot can be dumped into the intake manifold where it makes the soot sludge pies.
The Weeks elbow kit (https://shop.sasquatchparts.com) is an excellent way to get rid of ALLthat EGR stupid junk!

A little bit of history on the EHM for newer members, to help them understand where all of this came from:

It was figured out early on (years ago) that getting the oil vapors out of the intake air stream would stop the soot sludge build up since the EGR was dumping soot into the intake where the two would mix together and make sludge.
So, the general consensus at that time was that by removing the CCV hose out of the turbo intake boot (EHM) it would prevent the possible sludge build up.
Some were trying to keep the EGR feed electronically closed by unplugging the MAF sensor, installing a tune, SEGR mod, or mechanically by simply blocking off the EGR feed tube.

Then came alone the Weeks Elbow Kit which allowed the complete removal of the entire EGR system including the EGR valve, the EGR cooler, the FCV, and all associated plumbing attached to them. Then the tuners were able to provide us with updated tunes that removed the DTC's warnings that were triggered for the unplugged EGR & FCV parts.

Through all of this we learned that doing the EHM mod could cause some other serious issues due to the engine being designed and needing to have the negative pressure sucking on the CCV from the turbo inlet suction to function properly. We also learned the internal vacuum pump was discharging into the engine crankcase where it was adding to the CCV discharge flow.
So, with the advent of all of this knowledge, many of us who had been running the EHM mod opted to place the CCV discharge hose back into the turbo intake boot. To keep most of the oil vapors out of the intake air stream and to keep from rotting out the turbo rubber intake boot, which was a very common problem on these engines, many of us installed a ProVent coalescing filter or a similar type filtering device.
And that is where some of us are today....

If I missed anything or stated something wrong, jump in!

I think you covered it well, although I will add that the low engine operating temperatures of the CRD engine as a result of the terrible O.E. thermostat assembly makes all of these systems function even WORSE. Any pollution control system will work better when the engine operating temperatures are higher; this is also the case with the pollution control systems on the Liberty CRD.

That is one of the reasons why I developed the Model 001; to properly and safely raise the engine operating temperature to give the poorly designed pollution control systems a better environment, (read that as a hotter environment), to work in. There are vehicles with R428 engines operating in markets around the world where the punishments for stripping the pollution control systems off of the engine are severe, so getting the engine operating at a higher temperature is imperative to stretching out the times when you have to clean out the engine if no other alternative is available.

Due to the development costs I have incurred in creating the H.D.S. Model 001, I have been unable to create or purchase or install ANY other upgrades to either of my Liberty CRDs. This created a unique opportunity to see what raising the engine operating temperature ALONE would do to ward off the recurring P0299 check engine codes, (and the accompanying repairs and servicing), I had previously been getting on a fairly consistent basis in both time and distance with the crappy O.E. thermostat.

I am happy to report that by installing a Model 001 with the 203 degree Hemi thermostat valve I have been able to triple the time and distance it takes to accumulate enough sooty sludge to cause another P0299 check engine code to appear. I have therefore concluded that running the engine with a 203 degree thermostat valve is much more healthy for the engine than a 176 degree thermostat valve.

Does this mean the pollution control systems can be left operational on a North American market CRD when a Model 001 is installed? Most certainly not. Like I wrote above, the pollution control systems on the Liberty CRD are poorly designed. They need to be shut down, removed or modified to allow the engine to run as efficiently and reliably as possible. But my little experiment has shown to me how beneficial raising the operating temperature can be in overall performance and reliability to the R428.

thermorex · **Posted:** Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:15 am

flash7210 wrote:

I've been a very happy user of the provent. It works and I have no complaints.
But there is one thing that has always bugged my about it...

The flow path and filter position.
CCV vapors enter the canister from the top port. Flow down through the filter. And out the bottom port. The filter traps the oil along the path.
But, in order for the trapped oil to drain out of the filter, it has to pass through the filter:?
So what exactly keeps the oil from going back out the bottom port?

I get it, it works, but I dont get it.

I believe gravity and a relative clean filter keeps the oil from going back through provent. The inlet is over the filter in provent. There is a big rubber o ring on the edge of the filter, so the mist that goes in has the only way to go through the filter media. The filter will retain the oil from the mist and allow a less oily mist to go through the outlet. Gravity will remove some oil from the filter and drain it through the drain port, keeping the filter not super-soaked with oil. Also, I believe that because air is less dense than the oil, it will go through the filter much easier than the oil, there will still be maybe few oil vapors, but most would be captured by the filter.

Also, the filter material and density is very well thought for its purpose. It sounds a bit silly, but I know of some experiments on the 3.0 diesel on the ram, folks added the provent but they were getting a Cel after the provent filter captured some oil (the 3.0 has sensors that detect even a very small pressure variation), so they went with different filters, less restrictive, which didn't work very well since they didn't capture as much oil as the original did.

I clean the filters with gasoline btw. Makes it almost like new. I'd recommend cleaning them between 3-5,000 miles, based on the oil I see collected.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:59 am

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

I am happy to report that by installing a Model 001 with the 203 degree Hemi thermostat valve I have been able to triple the time and distance it takes to accumulate enough sooty sludge to cause another P0299 check engine code to appear. I have therefore concluded that running the engine with a 203 degree thermostat valve is much more healthy for the engine than a 176 degree thermostat valve.

Does this mean the pollution control systems can be left operational on a North American market CRD when a Model 001 is installed? Most certainly not. Like I wrote above, the pollution control systems on the Liberty CRD are poorly designed. They need to be shut down, removed or modified to allow the engine to run as efficiently and reliably as possible. But my little experiment has shown to me how beneficial raising the operating temperature can be in overall performance and reliability to the R428.

Jeff, you really need to add a block off plate to your EGR feed tube!!! Cost $0, can be made out of any simple piece of sheet metal like a soup can lid etc...
See this thread for dimensions:> viewtopic.php?f=5&t=76576&hilit
HDS thermostat or not, you need to stop dumping soot into your intake, it is very bad for the engine!!!! :wink:

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:35 pm

thermorex wrote:

I believe gravity and a relative clean filter keeps the oil from going back through provent. The inlet is over the filter in provent. There is a big rubber o ring on the edge of the filter, so the mist that goes in has the only way to go through the filter media. The filter will retain the oil from the mist and allow a less oily mist to go through the outlet. Gravity will remove some oil from the filter and drain it through the drain port, keeping the filter not super-soaked with oil. Also, I believe that because air is less dense than the oil, it will go through the filter much easier than the oil, there will still be maybe few oil vapors, but most would be captured by the filter.

Also, the filter material and density is very well thought for its purpose. It sounds a bit silly, but I know of some experiments on the 3.0 diesel on the ram, folks added the provent but they were getting a Cel after the provent filter captured some oil (the 3.0 has sensors that detect even a very small pressure variation), so they went with different filters, less restrictive, which didn't work very well since they didn't capture as much oil as the original did.

I clean the filters with gasoline btw. Makes it almost like new. I'd recommend cleaning them between 3-5,000 miles, based on the oil I see collected.

I use brake cleaner, it also works very well...

The Provent is not really a filter per say; but rather it is a small mechanical coalescing device! The oily vapors entering the Provent at the top at a 90 degree angle opposed to the Povent housing forcing the gaseous vapors into a swirl effect inside the housing which tends to centrifugally sling the heavier oil droplets against the insides of the housing where it is captured and runs down the sides to be collected. The filtering material in the center of the housing is made from micro-fiber which further captures any remaining liquid droplets in the gaseous vapors passing through the Provent by forcing any liquids to be collected on the filter material where it is captured and runs down the filter material to be collected in the bottom of the housing for future disposal....

Coalescing devices are used to separate liquid water and / or oil from gases using a coalescing effect. These devices additionally can remove particles. :mrgreen:

thermorex · **Posted:** Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:59 pm

WWDiesel wrote:

thermorex wrote:

I believe gravity and a relative clean filter keeps the oil from going back through provent. The inlet is over the filter in provent. There is a big rubber o ring on the edge of the filter, so the mist that goes in has the only way to go through the filter media. The filter will retain the oil from the mist and allow a less oily mist to go through the outlet. Gravity will remove some oil from the filter and drain it through the drain port, keeping the filter not super-soaked with oil. Also, I believe that because air is less dense than the oil, it will go through the filter much easier than the oil, there will still be maybe few oil vapors, but most would be captured by the filter.

Also, the filter material and density is very well thought for its purpose. It sounds a bit silly, but I know of some experiments on the 3.0 diesel on the ram, folks added the provent but they were getting a Cel after the provent filter captured some oil (the 3.0 has sensors that detect even a very small pressure variation), so they went with different filters, less restrictive, which didn't work very well since they didn't capture as much oil as the original did.

I clean the filters with gasoline btw. Makes it almost like new. I'd recommend cleaning them between 3-5,000 miles, based on the oil I see collected.

I use brake cleaner, it also works very well...

The Provent is not really a filter per say; but rather it is a small mechanical coalescing device! The oily vapors entering the Provent at the top at a 90 degree angle opposed to the Povent housing forcing the gaseous vapors into a swirl effect inside the housing which tends to centrifugally sling the heavier oil droplets against the insides of the housing where it is captured and runs down the sides to be collected. The filtering material in the center of the housing is made from micro-fiber which further captures any remaining liquid droplets in the gaseous vapors passing through the Provent by forcing any liquids to be collected on the filter material where it is captured and runs down the filter material to be collected in the bottom of the housing for future disposal....

Coalescing devices are used to separate liquid water and / or oil from gases using a coalescing effect. These devices additionally can remove particles. :mrgreen:

Agree with you, the explanation is better layed out than how I said it.

Regarding brake cleaner, isn't it too expensive? I am curious, I never thought to use that, even though I think it's more cost effective to use gasoline.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:05 pm

thermorex wrote:

Agree with you, the explanation is better layed out than how I said it.
Regarding brake cleaner, isn't it too expensive? I am curious, I never thought to use that, even though I think it's more cost effective to use gasoline.

If you catch it on sale at one of the big box part stores, it can be fairly cheap! Not as cheap as gasoline, but a whole lot safer....
I buy it a case at the time with shop discount....use it for all kinds of cleaning. Very handy to have on hand! :wink:

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:20 pm

I use carb cleaner. Brake cleaner gives me a nasty rash.
Gasolene may be cheaper, but carb cleaner comes in a handy spray can and can be used in a variety of ways.

Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby

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