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 Post subject: Re: Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:54 pm 
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So what do the flow sensors do on the 3.0 ?
On the 3.0, does the CCV hose go directly into the intake hose?
When they tried doing the ProVent (PV), did they "EHM" (so to speak) the drain hose or route the drippings back into the crank case (therefore closing the system) ?

IF they had the drippings from the PV go into a bottle or simply expelled them, this would allow CCV pressure to enter the atmosphere. (Trying to imagine what the sensor is about).

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 Post subject: Re: Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:01 pm 
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Understand that I am totally unfamiliar with the 3.0 design specs - however, properly-installed according to the provided instructions, PROVENT does not defeat the closed crankcase system - the not-connected oil-return drain hose does eliminate the low-pressure crankcase volume, which will interfere with flow-thru rate specs

'Nuther words, it can't emulate the open EHM version, nor the plugged 'drain-at-owner's-discretion' version

Remember, it works in FORD's factory-installed setups, with EPA certification

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'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
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 Post subject: Re: Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:41 pm 
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I totally agree,
I am having a little trouble myself understanding why a ProVent would interfere with a flow sensor on the CCV as long as the ProVent drain tube is capped it is still a closed system per say and the flow should remain the same minus the oil vapors.... :?:

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 Post subject: Re: Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:00 pm 
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You'll need to review the Provent diagram on their site to understand - the CDR puck is down on the side of the cannister, and is dependent on the drain being connected to the crankcase, just as with our 'puck' - both the open-drain EHM-type configuration and the plugged-drain configuration defeat the function and the concept

I understand that prolly 101% of the forum members are very hesitant to drill into the crankcase, but it must be done to effect the function

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'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject: Re: Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:52 am 
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Any reason not to tap drain line into turbo drain tube as opposed to tapping into block?

DOC

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 Post subject: Re: Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:35 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
Déjà vu
A new Ram 1500 Eco diesel owner, with the VM Motori 3.0L diesel engine is unpleasantly surprised at how much oil is in his intercooler hoses at only 4,000 miles on his new truck. They have flow sensors on their CCV and can't just install a Provent in the line. They've tried and failed. :cry:

Image


gde tune time, lol. Other than torque, it's less and less worth to get a diesel these days, so much epa junk in there that you can't change... And so much work if you manage to do your thing and gut the epa crap out...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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2005 kj CRD, samco, suncoast tc, provent, Kennedy lift pump, GDE ECO full torque, 2nd gen filter head, 245/70/16 a/t tires, mopar light bar, fumoto oil valve, OEM Skid Plates, ARB Front bumper and HD OME, tru cool LPD47391 40k GVW tranny cooler (stock cooler delete), FF Dynamics e-fan and shroud, rocker arms replaced, HDS2 190F thermostat.


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 Post subject: Re: Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:46 pm 
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thermorex wrote:
gde tune time, lol. Other than torque, it's less and less worth to get a diesel these days, so much epa junk in there that you can't change... And so much work if you manage to do your thing and gut the epa crap out...

I totally agree, with all the pollution crap on the motor and the DEF fluid, I see no reason to own a late model diesel vehicle until they get some of this junk off the motor. I like being able to modify my vehicles at will... :banghead:

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05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount

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 Post subject: Re: Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:57 pm 
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DOC4444 wrote:
Any reason not to tap drain line into turbo drain tube as opposed to tapping into block?

DOC That could work - but: the turbo drain line is thin stainless steel tubing, not tappable after drilling - any endeavor to attach a PROVENT drain line would involve pulling the drain-tube and extensively cleaning to allow tig-welding the required hose-barb - stainless steel cannot be brazed (brass), acetylene-welded or lead-soldered

Also, to be effectively functional as a gravity-drain, the drain port into the crankcase must be above the oil level in the pan, but lower than the outlet hole in the hose-barb on the PROVENT cannister

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'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject: Re: Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:12 pm 
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thermorex wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
Déjà vu
A new Ram 1500 Eco diesel owner, with the VM Motori 3.0L diesel engine is unpleasantly surprised at how much oil is in his intercooler hoses at only 4,000 miles on his new truck. They have flow sensors on their CCV and can't just install a Provent in the line. They've tried and failed. :cry:

Image


gde tune time, lol. Other than torque, it's less and less worth to get a diesel these days, so much epa junk in there that you can't change... And so much work if you manage to do your thing and gut the epa crap out...

This wouldn't be so bad if that's all it was, as Diesel fuel is a light oil - it's the exhuast gas recirculation that gums up the works - we're fortunate that they have to inject it as close to the intake valves as possible - just think if they chose to allow the compressor to suck it into the intake

Maybe someone could get a look at the latest FORD installations for more information as to how to install a PROVENT such that it would satisfy DJC engine management requirements


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject: Re: Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:40 pm 
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GM,

I have fittings that will seal fine to the turbo drain tube, without welding. (There is virtually no pressure in the drain tube, anyway, just heat.) The issue would just be whether there is enough of a height differential from the bottom of the ProVent to the entry point into the turbo drain tube to make for effective gravity draining.

Also, what do you think would be lost with the less tall version than you are suggesting?

DOC

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2005 KJ CRD Ltd Detroit TrueTrac Bilsteins G2 GDE "HOT" ECU GDE TCM "Tow Tune" "euro" TC SEGR Weeks Elbow New HG at 130K ARPs Clean CAT aFe Filter Magnaflow Exhaust EHM Cumminos In-Tank Lift Pump Hayden Fan Clutch Nylon Fan VH Enabled with GDE lower shutoff point Recalibrated Temp Gauge Tekonsha Prodigy Sears P-1 ZDDP


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 Post subject: Re: Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 6:24 pm 
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As I haven't looked on provent installation instructions for Ford,but read the general provent installation instructions, I can say, from what I remember, that they recommend draining the provent oil in the oil sump, below oil level, or draining it above oil sump level but only with a check valve

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2005 kj CRD, samco, suncoast tc, provent, Kennedy lift pump, GDE ECO full torque, 2nd gen filter head, 245/70/16 a/t tires, mopar light bar, fumoto oil valve, OEM Skid Plates, ARB Front bumper and HD OME, tru cool LPD47391 40k GVW tranny cooler (stock cooler delete), FF Dynamics e-fan and shroud, rocker arms replaced, HDS2 190F thermostat.


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 Post subject: Re: Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby
PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:07 pm 
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DOC4444 wrote:
GM,

I have fittings that will seal fine to the turbo drain tube, without welding. (There is virtually no pressure in the drain tube, anyway, just heat.) The issue would just be whether there is enough of a height differential from the bottom of the ProVent to the entry point into the turbo drain tube to make for effective gravity draining.

Also, what do you think would be lost with the less tall version than you are suggesting?

DOC

I posted this previously, reposting now to refresh a possible concept -

- the KJ CRD engine pumps 2.8 cubic liters air every two crank rotations (4-stroke\cycle design)
- 3.79L is one gallon
- at 2000rpm, that's 2800 (1000rpm x 2.8L, 4-stroke design, remember?) cubic liters of air per minute at BARO
- and let's not forget that 15psi BOOST is on top of normal BARO, which has effectively doubled flow thruput volume of the 2.8L engine, for effective 5.6L pumped volume, capable of burning same volume of fuel as a 5.6L engine at BARO
- double BOOST to 30psi, inject commensurate fuel quantity, and you've got an 8.4L engine\equiv, with equivalent crankcase effluent of the larger engine

Point being, each Provent series is sized to approximate engine power output - altho a gasser 2.8L 4-cyl may output ~115hp at 4-5000rpm, the 200-series was selected to cover the wider 190^hp power-range of this 2.8L turboDiesel engine

The 2.8L TD is equipped with a CDR puck prolly designed for a normally-aspirated engine - when the turbocharger was added, likely they increased the shore-rating of the diaphragm and increased the spring-tension due to the increased vacuum at the compressor intake

Now, here's a tho't: we done already got a puck, but it cain't keep up, fer squat - the PROVENT 200 is designed for an engine without a puck - perhaps, and don't quote me on this, the smaller series PROVENT could do an excellent job of augmenting the one we already got, eh..................


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'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject: Re: Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:13 am 
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I think this is curious....anyone thought it is the cam map of this particular dinky camshaft pair causing the resultant valve overlap with consequences by DESIGN. I'd love to see the cam mapped on paper before commenting too harshly but on reflection this is fairly typically European (of agriculturally derived engines) designed like the older Claas, Fiat, Pasquali, Same, Valpadano and a few other lesser known marques where they were known to run for eons w/o trouble.

Historically used as a UCL and valve train lube before it was so heavily sullied in very recent times with that gremlin EGR carbon loading. Indeed this explains (to some extent) why it is in fact by design a closed crankcase system. Putting it rather in an overly-simplified way, of course.
Point on ProVent 200: She do be too big for this leeettle donk.
I am not installing a ProVent but am 'stead a smaller (better matched to the output through the system but simular design to in that it does the same things). Remembering I don't have issues with freezing. I think the Provent is just too big to contribute any centrifugal separation to oil mist and relies almost solely on the coalescing filter medium at any perceived mist loads making the material of the fabric filter quite important.

It is curious what a monomoeter and flowmeter read at various throttle settings. Regrettably I was not in a position to evaluate under different loads which of course changes the propensity to mist load and I don't know where my figures went but this measurement was what pushed me to go in the direction of a unit sold in Australia by Forefront Industries with a washable filter element and easier to fit to-boot. Hoses are 3/4" both in and out and it can be positioned in 4 orientations for ease of fitment. BUT the diameter is the critical factor. There is (in my deciding trials) a positive component of a centrifugal separation as well as the coalescing filter.
http://www.forefrontindustries.com.au/# ... -universal

The Provent being more appropriate to larger diesel applications.
S'pose I'm in agreement (well - close) with gm.


Last edited by Auberon on Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:41 am 
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Auberon wrote:
I think this is curious....anyone thought it is the cam map of this particular dinky camshaft causing the resultant valve overlap with consequences. I'd love to see the cam mapped on paper before commenting to harshly but this is fairly typically European (of an agriculturally derived engine) design like the older Claas, Fiat, Pasquali, Same, Valpadano and a few other lesser known marques.

Historically used as a UCL and valve train lube before it was so heavily sullied in recent times with that gremlin EGR carbon loading and indeed this explains why it is in fact by design a closed crankcase system. Putting it rather in an overly-simplified way, of course.

The Provent being more appropriate to larger diesel applications.
S'pose I'm in total agreement with gm.



On my '06 CRD the PV200 is extracting about 6 oz's of oil every 3,000 miles.

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 Post subject: Re: Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:14 am 
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Not saying they won't work but......is there a better option? As I understand there isn't much to choose from and ProVent 200 was about the smallest one available for a very long time.


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 Post subject: Re: Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:16 pm 
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I have the V6 air cleaner box and it's venting before the filter am I still gaining the benefits of the negative pressure or does it have to be in the original position I am running a K&N so oil is ok


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 Post subject: Re: Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:19 pm 
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Found this write up.
http://www.auerbach.ca/kj/provent/


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 Post subject: Re: Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:04 pm 
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Negative pressure pre-filter is measured in inches of water "H2O and can be ~27"H2O at full BOOST - 27"H2O is baby's-breath equivalent
- post-filter negative pressure on the compressor-side is measured in inches of mercury "HG
- the compressor can draw up to 15"HG at full BOOST pressure, the dirtier the air filter the greater the vacuum in "HG - 15"HG is much greater than hickey-suction
- (27"H2O = 2"HG) (2"HG = 1psi)
- negative pressure pre-filter would then be 2"HG
- negative pressure post-filter would then be 15"HG

Diesel intake of oil is not bad, except in turbocharged systems with a Charge Air Cooler CAC, where the hot misted oil quickly cools, precipitating out into the CAC and collecting in the bottom rows of tubing - EGR makes it all worse for any oil that gets thru and into the intake manifold

The purpose of the CDR puck and the PROVENT is to remove excess oil from the vapors to prevent oil accumulation in the CAC, and carbonization of the rest by the Exhaust Gas Recirculation system
- the excess oil is then returned to the oil pan for reuse
- the KJ has the most modern EGR application, in that the hot exhaust gasses are passed thru the EGR heat-exchanger, cooled by engine coolant before introduction into the intake system
- still not too workable, it can carbonize the excess oil, also mixing with the natural soot in Diesel exhaust gasses, caking up the intake manifold

So, if I read you right, you have defeated the system in several areas

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


Last edited by gmctd on Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:09 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:51 pm 
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The puck is still in place and I've done the off-road modification so the EGR is not a problem just wondering if I should keep it vented before the air filter or if I should return it to the original location behind the air filter thank you for the information from what you have said I believe I should relocate it back to the original position


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 Post subject: Re: Excessive CCV or Engine Blowby
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:12 pm 
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The CDR hose must be in the oem-designed port between the air filter and the compressor inlet, not only to be functional, but because the air filter can be severely damaged by vaporized oil

If you're using the paper K&N these will be problematical:
- water can cause the filter to shrink and reduce it's CFM rating
- oil does not evaporate, it seeps, saturating and reducing even more of the filter efficiency

Even if you're using the K&N that requires sprayed oil to activate it, too much oil can reduce efficiency

Either way, I recommend returning the CDR hose to original location

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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