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Rocker replacement... do head gasket while I'm at it ???
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=80524		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  tomasnc [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Rocker replacement... do head gasket while I'm at it ???
I have got to open my 05 CRD up and change out some failed rocker arms.
I have the sasquatch egr kit too. The car has 151,000 miles and to the best of my knowledge hasn't shown signs of Head gasket failure.
So.... should I do the headgasket plus the new studs while it's opened up ?

Thanks guys

Tom
Author:  papaindigo [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker replacement... do head gasket while I'm at it ???
Others may have a different opinion but if you are doing ARP studs, you should, then you can probably reuse the head gasket as long as the head comes off clean and you don't move the head gasket from its original position.
Author:  greiswig [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker replacement... do head gasket while I'm at it ???
I thought the best way to replace stock bolts with studs was to do one at a time, so you never unseated the gasket? The way the gasket coating comes off in pieces...I don't think you'd ever get the same gasket to seal again if you moved it at all.

At the very least I would check torque on the bolts you have. Some of mine seemed to be sitting there at about 80lb/ft.
Author:  papaindigo [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker replacement... do head gasket while I'm at it ???
greiswig and tomasnc my bad - I read rockers and incorrectly, duh, leaped to head is coming off anyway :banghead: . Replacing rockers only involves pulling the valve cover with the cams and the timing belt + but not the head.

So keep it simple - yes while you are in that far if you have the $s replace the OEM bolts with ARP studs using the one at a time method. If you are experiencing no coolant loss leave the head gasket alone. I assume you are tossing a new timing belt and such on at the same time unless that was done recently in which case those components can be reused also.

greiswig - my reuse the head gasket comment is based on our experience with stoutdog's 06 where we had to lift the head enough to remove a significant glow plug piece. The gasket just sat there all in one piece and in one place so we lowered the head back in place and installed ARP studs. Several thousand miles later, including dragging a 5x8 U-Haul from Tally to Kearney, NE, no coolant leak.

Years ago I reused a head gasket on a Simca 1100 with no problems, much lower compression of course.
Author:  flman [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker replacement... do head gasket while I'm at it ???
X3, if you are not exhibiting coolant loss or cooing system over pressurization, just do the studs one at a time.
Author:  greiswig [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker replacement... do head gasket while I'm at it ???
greiswig wrote:
At the very least I would check torque on the bolts you have. Some of mine seemed to be sitting there at about 80lb/ft.


To try to reduce the risk of sowing disinformation, I'm going to challenge my own statement here. Given what Geordi has found regarding the lack of yield on at least some of the factory bolts, it makes me wonder whether re torquing the factory bolts that presumably were torqued into their elastic range in the first place...whether or not that makes sense?

And, if a guy were NOT in a position to buy the studs, there are plenty of us out here who probably have a set of brand new factory bolts that we would probably sell pretty cheap. Would replacing with those one at a time do anything good? Other than perhaps doing the job more carefully than JoeBob at the he factory?
Author:  tomasnc [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker replacement... do head gasket while I'm at it ???
Great information guys.

I have had this car parked since the end of March and I'm wanting to get it running again.

Timing belt. Who was the OEM vendor for this item? The guy that I purchased this car from said he'd changed it but I'm suspect of this.

Thanks,

Tom
Author:  greiswig [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker replacement... do head gasket while I'm at it ???
Get the kit from idparts. Good prices, great service. Comes complete with what you'll need, unless you start replacing pulleys, water pump, and all the other "longasiaminhere" parts. They have those, too.
Author:  Hexus [ Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker replacement... do head gasket while I'm at it ???
Do all the crap while you're in there, including lower radiator hose. You'll sleep better at night, trust me.
Author:  mecne [ Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker replacement... do head gasket while I'm at it ???
greiswig wrote:
Get the kit from idparts. Good prices, great service. Comes complete with what you'll need, unless you start replacing pulleys, water pump, and all the other "longasiaminhere" parts. They have those, too.



IDParts is simply the best . Great website ordering , great phone support , just great all around.
Had to cancel an order for a VW part once I paid with PayPal due to no stock , and had the paypal refund back within the day .

I purchase most of my VW TDI parts from them , and recently my CRD parts.

M
Author:  papaindigo [ Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker replacement... do head gasket while I'm at it ???
tomasnc I'd bet $s that there is no way the vehicle has 151,000 miles on the original timing belt. If you are replacing rockers because of TB failure there is your answer. If you are replacing rockers because of soot induced wear who cares who made the original belt or when it was changed. That far in at least, if you don't do the whole idparts kit, get a Gates T336, all of ca. $75 on Amazon, and put it on, then you know who did it and when. Needless to say check the bearings for leaking grease and replace as needed.

If it was me at that mileage I'd do the full idparts kit and forget about having to do it again until 250,000 miles.
Author:  geordi [ Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker replacement... do head gasket while I'm at it ???
PLEASE do the full timing kit from IDparts - If you don't have the yellow sticker on the engine somewhere (I always put it on the radiator crossmember by the airbox) then YOU DO NOT HAVE A NEW BELT.

If you are replacing rockers... I'd bet money that you have the original belt or the previous owner didn't do the full kit and maybe just bought the belt and something else has failed.

As for studs and the head - You will NOT have to lift the head. Replace the factory bolts one-at-a-time with the ARP studs, and PLEASE record your removal torques for the research project sticky thread (look at the topic listing, it is at the top) so you can help other members.

If you want me to do the labor, I have worked on over 35 of these so far, and am well familiar with what you need - I can send you a message with all the details, it would just be a matter of scheduling the details.
Author:  tomasnc [ Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker replacement... do head gasket while I'm at it ???
Guys,

There isn't a sticker so who knows. I'm opening it up next week.
I am guessing that soot is what killed it. I have very low power and replaced the turbo from my first CRD and that changed nothing.

Thinking back to the sticker. I replaced my wifes Jetta 2.0l belt and water pump and the kit did in fact have a sticker with it.

I'll let you all know.

Tom
Author:  LMWatBullRun [ Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker replacement... do head gasket while I'm at it ???
papaindigo wrote:
tomasnc I'd bet $s that there is no way the vehicle has 151,000 miles on the original timing belt. If you are replacing rockers because of TB failure there is your answer. If you are replacing rockers because of soot induced wear who cares who made the original belt or when it was changed. That far in at least, if you don't do the whole idparts kit, get a Gates T336, all of ca. $75 on Amazon, and put it on, then you know who did it and when. Needless to say check the bearings for leaking grease and replace as needed.

If it was me at that mileage I'd do the full idparts kit and forget about having to do it again until 250,000 miles.


+1 on that. Me too.
Author:  rancherman [ Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker replacement... do head gasket while I'm at it ???
greiswig wrote:
greiswig wrote:
At the very least I would check torque on the bolts you have. Some of mine seemed to be sitting there at about 80lb/ft.


To try to reduce the risk of sowing disinformation, I'm going to challenge my own statement here. Given what Geordi has found regarding the lack of yield on at least some of the factory bolts, it makes me wonder whether re torquing the factory bolts that presumably were torqued into their elastic range in the first place...whether or not that makes sense?

And, if a guy were NOT in a position to buy the studs, there are plenty of us out here who probably have a set of brand new factory bolts that we would probably sell pretty cheap. Would replacing with those one at a time do anything good? Other than perhaps doing the job more carefully than JoeBob at the he factory?

you're on the right path here.. engineers KNOW what the bolt will relax to after 'x' amount of cycles.. and still have 'x' amount of elasticity. That's how they come up with the original torque setting. re-torqueing to factory specs with a 'used' bolt... I kinda squirm a little here. Do we know what the original bolt was supposed to do? ie 'have x amount of elasticity' to deal with the aluminum head... which upon retorqueing to full value again, blows that out of the water? I have several big diesels that get 320 ft lbs on the head torque several times rebuilding/freshening in the past 40 yrs... Next time will probably see new bolts. (for that engine, $2800) Not looking forward to that day!
More and more engines these days are using 'one time only' type fasteners..
Me? I'd go either new oem each time the head is off, or go with the studs if needing a fastener for several tear downs/rebuilds.

LOL, "JoeBob" is probably 'Vincent' Antonio, 'Dino' Fredo..
Author:  geordi [ Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker replacement... do head gasket while I'm at it ???
You are correct - Within the scope of 'normal' bolts.

A 'normal' bolt should always be operating within the 'elastic' range for the job it is doing and the torque spec it is set to. This would allow for a repeatable performance, and depending on the closeness of the tolerances to the end of the elastic range, that bolt could be torqued and released an indefinite number of times, or not very many at all, before becoming 'plastic' and failing on the very next cycle.

These are TTY bolts however. Torque To Yield. By their very definition, they leave the elastic range on their very first use. The engineering of these bolts is unknown, and therefore subject to some significant debate as to overall quality. If you wish to trust the manufacturer (almost certainly the lowest bidding supplier) then I bid you luck on your engines. For the engines I have seen however, and the variability in torque WITHIN THE SAME ENGINE of bolts that should all be at the same torque spec... I cannot trust them AT ALL. The performance of the ARP studs in this application is well within the elastic range for the fasteners, which means that their performance will be consistent and predictable time and again, something that a designed-to-weaken product cannot accurately deliver.

I have personally attempted destructive testing of these "torque to yield" bolts and been unable to snap the shaft of one within the range of my torque wrench, and at DOUBLE the range of the torque that the engine receives. This is not torque-to-yield performance. Yet another member attempted re-torquing of the factory bolts, and had one snap in the hole at less than 130 lb-ft. Their performance is NOT PREDICTABLE and I cannot in good conscience suggest that ANY member use the factory bolts on their engine. The cost of the ARP bolts is not insignificant, I agree. However that cost is balanced against the certainty that the head gasket will NOT leak if it hasn't already, or will NOT leak on a new installation because the clamping force is so complete and even across the engine.
Author:  rancherman [ Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rocker replacement... do head gasket while I'm at it ???
I agree with ya geordi. That's why I said in a nutshell- my 'squirminess' in retorqueing used bolts. even the ones still in the engine (never removed). It is really frowned upon retorqueing ANY tty bolt. Is it still done? sure. but the failure rate goes up exponentially. No big surprise there.
I'd rather take my chances with new oem, and ultimately the studs first.
I wonder if these same bolts (design) are used in the engines in the Ram 1500! The heads look similar, only 1 hole shorter
Seeing our engine is 'right at 1 horsepower' per cubic inch, and a lot of these Libertys were sold to first time diesel owners, and then throw in the Alum head to boot.. 'something's gotta give'.
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