Rocker change gone bad

mecne · **Posted:** Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:22 pm

Pulling this Topic into a new Thread from the "The Correct way to change your TIMING BELT!" thread.

Recap
Bought the 06 Liberty CRD back in in June . Blowing black smoke under load .
Turbo was bad . Replaced it
Changed Oil , all filters and siliconed the one Fuel Filter socket
Replaced Turbo Hoses
No change
Had a busy summer and couldn't get it in the garage ( The VW TDI's kept breaking and needed fixing as they are daily drivers) and flipped a 01 Jetta TDI and made a bit of extra cash to dump in the Jeep.

Finally got back to the liberty , pulled it apart to replace the rockers , timing belt , glow plugs and gaskets associated.

Here is a gallery of my rockers . 1 smushed HLA and 1 broken others with worn rollers but needle bearings seem to be intact.
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/1161 ... 3328755185

Put it back together with no problem , doing the timing procedure and I got a bind when cranking it by hand after doing the belt tension.

Missing the ball end off the end and a small chunk off the broken lifter .

Current discussion

greiswig wrote:

Mike92104 wrote:

I understood it to be 180* from TDC to TDC ish.

Not sure I understand you, Mike. Full rotation of the crank (360 degrees) brings a cylinder full cycle, right? 180 would take it from TDC to bottom of the stroke. My point is just that he said he couldn't rotate it more than 90 degrees in either direction (+-90, or 180 degrees total). If that is accurate, that seems like it is a saying that the first 90 degrees of the stroke in either direction are taken up by whatever is on his piston. The stroke is 100mm, so it would take a 50mm object sitting in just the right spot on the piston to do that. That seems too big. Again, if his statement is accurate.

Even if he meant 90 degrees of movement total, that means it would need to be an even bigger thing, right? Blocking out 270 degrees of piston travel, so about 80mm?

But if it is something sitting under one of the crank counterweights, balance shaft, or similar, it might bind every 90 degrees or so...depending on what the effective fraction of a circle that piece is, and where the broken shard sits. So if I'm just going based on that one statement, I'd bet against it being something on the piston.

So...how much movement is there really, mecne?

Sorry I wrote my last post in a hurry as I had to get the kids .

I was just out to the garage to check on a few things from previous posts and got an accurate measurement on the crank movement

Can rotate crank approx +90 degrees from crank timing mark and get bind.
Can rotate crank approx -270 degrees from crank timing mark and get bind.

Would this support the theory that the HLA Ball end is sitting on top of one of the pistons ?
Could have rolled down the intake path when I took the intake off , and then past the valves when I rotated during the post tension on the timing belt or down the injector hole ( I didn't plug them , hindsight 20/20 didn't even think of it ) ?

greiswig wrote:

If he managed to bind the valves open when/if he mistimed it and tried to turn it, open valves might step in far enough, but...the ball joint on an HLA? That would probably fall down into the low pocket on the piston and wait until the engine was running to really cause damage, wouldn't it?

I took all the rockers off and put a level on the valve stems and they seem to all be at the same height.

I also measured the HLA ball Joint and it's about a 1/4 inch diameter .

Mike

Hexus · **Posted:** Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:40 pm

I would seriously consider removing the head at this point and checking the back side of it as well as the pistons, etc.

I know it's a lot more work, and just taking the intake back off at this point seems daunting, but better safe than sorry.

greiswig · **Posted:** Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:43 pm

That is potentially good news. I don't know how the part could get past the valve into the combustion chamber, but what you seem to be saying is that you virtually have 359 degrees of crank rotation. That one degree missing is a lot more reasonably in keeping with the idea that something small is on the piston. It still might be elsewhere, but...might be easier if it's on them piston.

With the cover off, you should be able to easily find which pair of cylinders might house a missing piece: poke a dowel rod down the injector hole and find which pair is high in the bore when the interference is happening.

Geordi already mentioned a good way to simultaneously blow and suck through the cylinders. A magnet might work even better there because the piston is aluminum, so it won't try to attract the magnet and you'll only have to worry about it latching onto the bore.

If it were me, I'd be trying out one of those relatively cheap boroscopes from Harbor Freight. Because it would be bad to blow whatever it is down into the low part of the piston head, where it wouldn't interfere anymore, only to then start bouncing around once you got the engine running again. Best to be able to see where it is, and also see that it is really gone.

rancherman · **Posted:** Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:59 pm

assuming the engine is sitting in the timing slot zone... I'd check #3 and 2 first. #3 and 2 the next pistons 'up' in the firing order.

EDIT..
how exactly would a broken chunk of HLA get on top of the piston? I'd bet the interference is probably that chunk.. but wouldn't it be 'outside' the combustion chamber?

greiswig · **Posted:** Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:12 pm

rancherman wrote:

how exactly would a broken chunk of HLA get on top of the piston? I'd bet the interference is probably that chunk.. but wouldn't it be 'outside' the combustion chamber?

Yeah, I asked that same question. But he said he checked the valve stem levels, and they all looked equal.

You might want to really double check that. If the thing is lodged somehow at the valve seat or something, that could cause interference, but you won't dislodge it with air. But it might be relatively easy to reach, too.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:37 pm

Doubtful that it is jammed in the valve, that would be fairly obvious.

one full rotation of the crank is one arrival at TDC and one arrival at BDC - You are starting at 90ATDC, so if you can rotate +90, that means your obstruction is on piston 2 or 3 - because both are rising when 1 and 4 are heading down. +90 rotation lands #1 and #4 at BDC. -270 does the same thing - 2 and 3 reach BDC when #1 is TDC, then everyone is halfway at -180 from your current position, and finally again at -270, #1 is BDC.

The risk of blowing the object around is minimal, you will either extract it or you won't. You KNOW there is something in there, I would do both #2 and #3, with the crankshaft rotated +45 degrees from its current location, to both minimize the combustion space and also let you have a better chance of the debris being "encouraged" to fly out the exit of the injector hole. That is also why you want a filter / catch on the vacuum tubing, so you can see what you have caught. I used a borescope to look for a piece of glow plug tip, and basically landed on the thing before I saw it - Couldn't see crap in the cylinder. The air trick has worked for more than a couple people on the board here, and the end result if it doesn't work is the same - you will need to pull the head anyway to verify, and get enough room (if you find nothing) to raise the engine to pull the oil pan.

If you DO pull the head (or really just for good measure while you have the engine this far apart) I would strongly suggest putting in the ARP studs. I know, it is another $360 in parts.... But you are in this far.

rancherman · **Posted:** Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:45 pm

just how small is the injector hole? I dunno... haven't been that deep in mine yet! without a borescope, I'd try a extended mag, or a wire with a sticky 'foot' attached.. You'd be amazed what a blob of sticky grease on the end of a probe can snare! I have an extendable mag (looks like an old radio antenna) that has a 3/8ths diameter super mag on the end.
a extendable telescoping mag stuck straight down.. sitting on top of piston.. and shooting a blast of air to get the FB bouncing around may get it close enough to attach itself to the mag..
Or a piece of vacuum tubing cobbled up to a shop vac (lots of reducers) lol, should still have enough 'grab' to snare a FB too... stick it down the cylinder and hoover away! the roller should just be sittin there stuck on the end of the tube!
..... Would love to see the look on your face when ya pull it back out to the sunny side of the engine!.... I usually go through a 'LOOKY what I DID'.. type celebration.. :BANANA:

almost a 'caveman discovers fire'.. whoops, I digress!
Good luck man!

flash7210 · **Posted:** Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:18 am

greiswig wrote:

rancherman wrote:

how exactly would a broken chunk of HLA get on top of the piston? I'd bet the interference is probably that chunk.. but wouldn't it be 'outside' the combustion chamber?

Yeah, I asked that same question. But he said he checked the valve stem levels, and they all looked equal.

You might want to really double check that. If the thing is lodged somehow at the valve seat or something, that could cause interference, but you won't dislodge it with air. But it might be relatively easy to reach, too.

I just dont see how any part of the rocker or lash adjuster could wind up in the combustion chamber. Exactly what path would that part travel to end up there?

I suspect maybe a bent/broken valve, or piece of broken glow plug, or chunk of carbon.

If you havent already, pull the glow plugs to check their condition.
Plan on lifting the head to be absolutely sure nothing is in there.

mecne · **Posted:** Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:53 am

flash7210 wrote:

I just dont see how any part of the rocker or lash adjuster could wind up in the combustion chamber. Exactly what path would that part travel to end up there?

I suspect maybe a bent/broken valve, or piece of broken glow plug, or chunk of carbon.

If you havent already, pull the glow plugs to check their condition.
Plan on lifting the head to be absolutely sure nothing is in there.

Could it have rolled into the intake path , and then when I rotated by hand after doing the TB tensioning dropped past the valve on the intake stroke?
Replaced original ceramic tip glow plugs with a set of Etechno while I had the intake off. The tips on the old plugs where in good shape.

If I can find a small enough flexible magnet tool like the one below today I will try it first , and if not I will be pulling the head this weekend.

Mike

rancherman · **Posted:** Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:12 am

Just to eliminate 'this possibility'... did you completely remove the flywheel locating pin/tool/whatever you used? And did ALL of it make it out in one piece?

mecne · **Posted:** Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:34 am

rancherman wrote:

Just to eliminate 'this possibility'... did you completely remove the flywheel locating pin/tool/whatever you used? And did ALL of it make it out in one piece?

I used a 6mm allen key , and it was intact when I took it out .

M

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:58 am

flash7210 wrote:

greiswig wrote:

rancherman wrote:

how exactly would a broken chunk of HLA get on top of the piston? I'd bet the interference is probably that chunk.. but wouldn't it be 'outside' the combustion chamber?

Yeah, I asked that same question. But he said he checked the valve stem levels, and they all looked equal.
You might want to really double check that. If the thing is lodged somehow at the valve seat or something, that could cause interference, but you won't dislodge it with air. But it might be relatively easy to reach, too.

I just dont see how any part of the rocker or lash adjuster could wind up in the combustion chamber. Exactly what path would that part travel to end up there?
I suspect maybe a bent/broken valve, or piece of broken glow plug, or chunk of carbon.
If you havent already, pull the glow plugs to check their condition.
Plan on lifting the head to be absolutely sure nothing is in there.

I agree, I was having trouble figuring out how something could get into the combustion chamber just by working on the rockers unless you dropped something into the intake port and it went past a valve when it opened? Having worked on many motors in the past, I have never experienced a problem such as this! :shock:

I agree with Flash, must be a piece of carbon or piece of glow plug????

greiswig · **Posted:** Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:58 am

I think I was making an assumption: that he had turned the engine over immediately after working on the rockers.

If he didn't, he might have dropped something down one of the injector holes unless he did what I did: as soon as the injectors were pulled, I rolled up paper towels to put in their place to prevent exactly this from happening.

Is it possible you dropped it down the injector inlet?

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:26 pm

Anything that enters through either the injector inlet or the glow plug hole would land on the domed center of the piston and be underneath the crown. I strongly suspect the object is on top of the valve dimples on the crown of the piston.

FYI: These are bi-metal pistons, they are steel on top. The domed center section has a HUGE cavity area that would allow an object to hide out of the way, I think he should be glad that this didn't do that, or he might never have known until something went bang-crunchy-tinkle-tinkle-tinkle...

greiswig · **Posted:** Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:40 pm

geordi wrote:

Anything that enters through either the injector inlet or the glow plug hole would land on the domed center of the piston and be underneath the crown. I strongly suspect the object is on top of the valve dimples on the crown of the piston.

FYI: These are bi-metal pistons, they are steel on top. The domed center section has a HUGE cavity area that would allow an object to hide out of the way, I think he should be glad that this didn't do that, or he might never have known until something went bang-crunchy-tinkle-tinkle-tinkle...

I agree that landing in the piston well is the more likely scenario if something went down through the injector hole. But hey, things bounce.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:50 pm

greiswig wrote:

geordi wrote:

Anything that enters through either the injector inlet or the glow plug hole would land on the domed center of the piston and be underneath the crown. I strongly suspect the object is on top of the valve dimples on the crown of the piston.

FYI: These are bi-metal pistons, they are steel on top. The domed center section has a HUGE cavity area that would allow an object to hide out of the way, I think he should be glad that this didn't do that, or he might never have known until something went bang-crunchy-tinkle-tinkle-tinkle...

I agree that landing in the piston well is the more likely scenario if something went down through the injector hole. But hey, things bounce.

If its in the bowl, then it should be easy to retrieve with a magnet if it is metal with some carbon steel in it, or with a vacuum tube if its pure carbon or stainless.

By the way, I ordered two of those magnet listed above, they are only 4.95. May need one one day, good to have in the old toolbox.... :wink:

greiswig · **Posted:** Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:53 pm

WWDiesel wrote:

greiswig wrote:

geordi wrote:

Anything that enters through either the injector inlet or the glow plug hole would land on the domed center of the piston and be underneath the crown. I strongly suspect the object is on top of the valve dimples on the crown of the piston.

FYI: These are bi-metal pistons, they are steel on top. The domed center section has a HUGE cavity area that would allow an object to hide out of the way, I think he should be glad that this didn't do that, or he might never have known until something went bang-crunchy-tinkle-tinkle-tinkle...

I agree that landing in the piston well is the more likely scenario if something went down through the injector hole. But hey, things bounce.

If its in the bowl, then it should be easy to retrieve with a magnet if it is metal with some carbon steel in it, or with a vacuum tube if its pure carbon or stainless.

By the way, I ordered two of those magnet listed above, they are only 4.95. May need one one day, good to have in the old toolbox.... :wink:

But if it's in the bowl, it isn't causing the interference he's experiencing.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:06 pm

greiswig wrote:

WWDiesel wrote:

If its in the bowl, then it should be easy to retrieve with a magnet if it is metal with some carbon steel in it, or with a vacuum tube if its pure carbon or stainless.

By the way, I ordered two of those magnet listed above, they are only 4.95. May need one one day, good to have in the old toolbox.... :wink:

But if it's in the bowl, it isn't causing the interference he's experiencing.

Yep! you right, brain poot!!!! :ROTFL:

mecne · **Posted:** Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:29 pm

Head is off !!!

Good News ;
Full 360 degree rotation with no binding . :pepper:

Here is a picture of Cylinder 2 - You can see where I put my finger in the carbon I was pretty hard and crusty . But crazy build up

Cylinder3

Here is the bottom of the head , everything looks good ..

Ordering a head gasket, ARP Studs , and an exhaust manifold gasket today and should be in next week , and I'll put her back together.

Bad News :banghead:

No sign of the broken pieces of the HLA .

mecne · **Posted:** Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:44 pm

mecne wrote:

Bad News

No sign of the broken pieces of the HLA .

Quoting myself .. lol

I'll be draining oil with a screen here in a bit and see if I can find the missing pieces .
Is there anyway I can flush the oil jackets and bottom of the oil pan with the head off and the oil drain plug out ? What would I use?

If I can't find them Is there a magnetic oil drain plug , or another option I should do as a preventative measure to try and catch them?

Thanks Again everyone .

Mike

Rocker change gone bad

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