Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minutes)

rancherman · **Posted:** Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:31 pm

curious, have you checked your coolant level? Is it disappearing?, discolored? I don't know about this 'new' antifreeze and how it responds to exhaust gas, I've seen fairly dark brown-to almost black coolant that should've been yellowish green.
Not all coolant leaks work 'both' ways though. depending on where the leak/crack may be, you could see coolant getting in the exhaust, but no compression back though the coolant, or vice versa. A crack such as greiswig and gmctd would be an example, where no compression makes it back through the coolant to discolor or push out the overflow. (exhaust valve is closed when very high compression is made.. and is 'protecting the crack'.

If you coolant is disappearing.. ^^^^^ is probably what you are up against. If not, THEN I'd suspect an injector.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:17 am

I have been experiencing white smoke on startup also.
But it's not especially cold here, 53 this morning, and the engine is not hard to start.
It only smokes under load when cold.
At idle, no smoke. Reving the engine in park, no smoke.
If I put it in D, hold the brake, and rev the engine I can get some white smoke.
But it all goes away once the engine is warmed up.

rancherman · **Posted:** Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:27 pm

flash7210 wrote:

I have been experiencing white smoke on startup also.
But it's not especially cold here, 53 this morning, and the engine is not hard to start.
It only smokes under load when cold.
At idle, no smoke. Reving the engine in park, no smoke.
If I put it in D, hold the brake, and rev the engine I can get some white smoke.
But it all goes away once the engine is warmed up.

Out of curiosity, what is your typical humidity there?
53 degrees, and assuming 90% coastal humidity.. (don't know where you are in florida)... I'd venture you have water vapor.. not necessarily 'smoke'.
Certain temps 'here' with certain humidities I can make any diesel look like a white tornado... on cold start up!
unless your coolant is disappearing.. I'd say that's whatcha got.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:50 am

rancherman wrote:

flash7210 wrote:

I have been experiencing white smoke on startup also.
But it's not especially cold here, 53 this morning, and the engine is not hard to start.
It only smokes under load when cold.
At idle, no smoke. Reving the engine in park, no smoke.
If I put it in D, hold the brake, and rev the engine I can get some white smoke.
But it all goes away once the engine is warmed up.

Out of curiosity, what is your typical humidity there?
53 degrees, and assuming 90% coastal humidity.. (don't know where you are in florida)... I'd venture you have water vapor.. not necessarily 'smoke'.
Certain temps 'here' with certain humidities I can make any diesel look like a white tornado... on cold start up!
unless your coolant is disappearing.. I'd say that's whatcha got.

Its florida, of course its humid. :lol:

My observations this morning:
45 degrees outside.
Slightly rough starting.
Noticed typical cold morning water vapor out of exhaust, at idle.
Accelerated leaving house, large white plume of smoke, for about one minute of driving.

I think its my Etecno glow plugs. They just are not as good as the old ceramic ones.

[Also, my coolant WAS dissapearing until I found a leaking hose clamp. Seems to be holding now]

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:46 am

When it's just water vapor, it will have the slight odor of well-burned Diesel fuel

maxf15 · **Joined:** Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:30 pm **Posts:** 52

Ok, stupid question for a guy who's changed his own turbo. But what is the most upper-left (as you look at it) component driven by the serpentine belt?

I added UV dye to my coolant system and it is definitely seeping around the seals of that component, whatever it is. It's just beneath (lower) than the thermostat. Sure looks like it would be a water pump, but I understand that's behind the timing belt cover.

I think that's where my coolant leak is coming from.

I'm still convinced that my white smoke is from a leaky injector... going to pull them after Christmas and send them to Ocala FL for testing.

gmctd · **Posted:** Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:02 pm

When you've changed your leaky viscous cabin heater, then you'll know what it is, also - provides additional warmth for the interior in cold climes.......................

Could be loose hose clamps or deteriorated coolant hose

ArmyChief · **Posted:** Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:14 am

gmctd wrote:

When you've changed your leaky viscous cabin heater, then you'll know what it is

And I ALMOST did not think you had sense of humor

gmctd · **Posted:** Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:00 pm

maxf15 wrote:

Ok, stupid question for a guy who's changed his own turbo. But what is the most upper-left (as you look at it) component driven by the serpentine belt?

I added UV dye to my coolant system and it is definitely seeping around the seals of that component, whatever it is. It's just beneath (lower) than the thermostat. Sure looks like it would be a water pump, but I understand that's behind the timing belt cover.

I think that's where my coolant leak is coming from.

I'm still convinced that my white smoke is from a leaky injector... going to pull them after Christmas and send them to Ocala FL for testing.

Ok - first thing you're required to learn is the difference in "SMOKE" and "VAPOR", or your nose will not accurately diagnose your symptom,
which, in this case, is: white vapor.........

Exhaust SMOKE is always gray to black, with distinct odor of burned Diesel fuel
- coolant-leak into combustion chamber thru cracked head will add a very indescribably nasty odor to the burned fuel odor - can be visually
clear to gray to black smoke

Exhaust white VAPOR gives you three choices:

- normal burning-off of water vapor in the exhaust system on cool-to-cold humid-to-wet days - has odor of combusted diesel fuel, just like
getting a snoot-full of normal Diesel exhaust-gasses, but moist

- coolant-leak into exhaust system around exhaust port\manifold area - distinct odor of antifreeze with odor of normal Diesel exhaust-gas

- rich fuel\air mixture vapor is distinct odor of raw liquid Diesel fuel mixed with normal Diesel exhaust-gas, but warmly moist

If you do not take time to differentiate amongst the three white VAPORs B4 pulling your injectors for rework, any related endeavors will be equivalent to:

- tuggin' on Superman's cape

- spittin' into the wind

- pullin' the mask off that ol' Lone Ranger

- messin' around with Jim

Which, as Slim and everyone else knows, you just don't do

Word up, dude..................

greiswig · **Posted:** Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:34 pm

maxf15 wrote:

I'm still convinced that my white smoke is from a leaky injector... going to pull them after Christmas and send them to Ocala FL for testing.

Good for you! Don't let well-reasoned thinking sway you from your well-entrenched opinion.

If you're still listening...
Unless some other data has come up that you haven't reported yet, my original question still remixing: why are you so sure it's fuel? White exhaust sounds like something else.

maxf15 · **Joined:** Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:30 pm **Posts:** 52

Ok, ok... Y'all are a tough crowd. Uncle! I'm seeing white VAPOR, not smoke! Waaaay more than normal cold morning type of thing.

So how can I test my exhaust without relying on just my sniffer?? Is there an exhaust tester out there that'll tell if it's coolant or fuel in the white VAPOR?

gmctd · **Posted:** Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:28 am

Atta-boy, nephew, good progress - now, first, tell us what your sniffer thinks - the ole schnoz can be fairly accurate once you know what you'll be inhaling - anyone can smell and recognize anti-freeze spill - anyone can smell and recognize Diesel fuel spill - same with exhaust gas vapors - but, if no odor and lasts a long time, well, maybe get the CDC involved...................

Step into the mist and all shall be revealed, eh

p.s. - Water vapor dissipates rapidly - more-viscous fuel or coolant vapors hold the heat, evaporate slowly, tend to hang-about longer

maxf15 · **Joined:** Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:30 pm **Posts:** 52

gmctd - I'm putting my money on it being fuel vapor. The vapor cloud lingers. In fact it just stays there (with no wind)... and yes, it smells like fuel. I got a really good whiff.

In addition, I am a lot closer to my coolant leak I think. I drove the little tractor to town tonight (got a coolant light) and when I got back I decided to shut the engine off and check under the hood. There was a sound like a liquid dripping on a very hot surface (tss-tss-tss-tss) about 1-2 drips per second. It was on the passenger side of the engine. I took a light to try to see what was dripping, but couldn't see anything. It sounded like it was near the turbo, or under the coolant bottle. I looked at all the lines to the coolant bottle - nothing, and looked around hoses/fittings that go into the firewall but couldn't see anything. Odd, I didn't smell coolant or see any vapor, but I could definitely hear the drip/sizzle. I was using the defrost... so it very well could have been water dripping off the A/C lines.

The viscous heater is definitely leaky... I'm seeing coolant dye all around the pump seal. Those things are waaay pricey. Can you fix them? Or is there another less costly solution?

If I have to replace the viscous heater and do an injector or two, I'd almost rather sell this to someone who has the time to do it.

Any ideas???

Offers? Lol.

gmctd · **Posted:** Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:39 pm

Ok - first, let's address the coolant leak, as that's more important
- best time to check is in the dark with a flashlight, which focuses your view on specifically-illuminated areas
- raise the hood, start the engine, and use the lite to view the turbo down-pipe between turbo elbow and transmission
- coolant sizzle should be visible on the downpipe, the drips should be traceable upward from there
- coolant reservoir overflow drain tube is back in that area, so follow it down
- drips may be coming from where heater hoses enter the firewall

gmctd · **Posted:** Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:26 pm

maxf15 wrote:

gmctd - I'm putting my money on it being fuel vapor. The vapor cloud lingers. In fact it just stays there (with no wind)... and yes, it smells like fuel. I got a really good whiff.

In addition, I am a lot closer to my coolant leak I think. I drove the little tractor to town tonight (got a coolant light) and when I got back I decided to shut the engine off and check under the hood. There was a sound like a liquid dripping on a very hot surface (tss-tss-tss-tss) about 1-2 drips per second. It was on the passenger side of the engine. I took a light to try to see what was dripping, but couldn't see anything. It sounded like it was near the turbo, or under the coolant bottle. I looked at all the lines to the coolant bottle - nothing, and looked around hoses/fittings that go into the firewall but couldn't see anything. Odd, I didn't smell coolant or see any vapor, but I could definitely hear the drip/sizzle. I was using the defrost... so it very well could have been water dripping off the A/C lines.

The viscous heater is definitely leaky... I'm seeing coolant dye all around the pump seal. Those things are waaay pricey. Can you fix them? Or is there another less costly solution?
First, make sure the hoses, which both connect at the top side, are not leaking due to weak clamps - if the seal is leaking, FSM gives no hint as to repair - you'll just need to bite the bullet, there

If I have to replace the viscous heater and do an injector or two, I'd almost rather sell this to someone who has the time to do it.
I'd rather more suspect a bad glow-plug or several and cold weather for the fuel vapors - an injector leaking that badly could also result in constant light black smoke, which you have not indicated
Easier to check is a clogged air filter - ECM is injecting fuel based on calcs with clean, low drag air filter - dirty or damp\wet causes rich fuel condition

Any ideas???

Offers? Lol.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:54 am

and you can get crazy and remove the useless viscous heater (if it actually leaks past a seal? never heard of that one), but I removed the mechanical fan, and AC (I just couldn't handle all that crap under the hood for AC) as well, so not sure if you can remove just the viscous heater without coming up with some special bracket for an idler pulley in place of it (I only removed stuff, and relocated the tensioner pulley). You wouldn't have to remove the AC for this mod, but I would think that you'd have to buy an electric fan and shroud. Unless, you're like several other people on here that run with no fan, but that's another story. ok, I've said too much :5SHOTS:

...

flman · **Posted:** Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:19 am

maxf15 wrote:

I'm now in the camp of those who have experienced fairly hard starts, especially when cold, and lots -I mean LOTS - of white smoke for a few minutes after start. No codes!

So you are saying it only does this when cold? Does not sound like a mechanical problem, more like a cold diesel problem. Poor combustion due to a cold block. I would say these Libby CRDs are the worst cold starting diesels I have ever onwed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywkefB6RvyA

maxf15 · **Joined:** Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:30 pm **Posts:** 52

It was 70 degrees here in middle Georgia yesterday, and the Libby poured out a cloud of white vapor for about 5 minutes... smelled like diesel. So it does it when it's warm too; it's just noticeably worse the colder it gets. The harder starts are when it's below say 40 degrees or so. That's when I get some knocking/missing for a couple seconds while trying to crank it.

The techs who test/re-build these Bosch injectors say an injector can leak (not seal) after turning the engine off, allowing fuel from the rail to drain into the cylinder, which then burns off as you start it back up. Seems plausible... but expensive to repair!

Also, I've driven this little tractor for the last 90k miles, and the white vapor was never there when I bought it with 60k miles on it. It has slowly gotten worse and worse within the last year.

I'm going to go out this a.m. and post a you-tube vid so you guys can see what I mean.

maxf15 · **Joined:** Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:30 pm **Posts:** 52

Ok fellas, here's the video of a cold start this morning. I got my 11-yr-old to help me while I filmed. It was 55 degrees (not 'cold' by most standards), but very humid.

It seems like a normal start at first with only a little white smoke... nothing of concern. But the longer the engine runs, the more white vapor is emitted. After about a minute of idling, I asked my son to rev to 2000 rpm. It becomes evident this is much more than normal water vapor on a cool morning. Plus that vapor cloud smells like fuel.

Be patient... the best view of the cloud doesn't happen until 1:30 to about 2:00 into the video.

Take a look:

http://youtu.be/eksSP9pM4gY

flman · **Posted:** Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:41 pm

Okay, 70 degrees cold versus 40 or 20 or 0 is a lot different. :mrgreen:

Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minutes)

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