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 Post subject: Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minutes)
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:38 am 
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I'm now in the camp of those who have experienced fairly hard starts, especially when cold, and lots -I mean LOTS - of white smoke for a few minutes after start. No codes!

The hard start and white smoke may not even be related, I'm not sure... I replaced all four glow plugs last summer after two OEMs failed. I installed the ETechno 7V metal drop ins, so this is the first winter with the Etechnos.

Is there a way that an injector can fail or leak when the engine is shut off that allows pooling of fuel? Once the engine is running there's no knock, or odd ping. I'm getting 25-26 mpg routinely, but I look like James Bond dumping a smoke screen for the first few minutes going down the road... it's definitely fuel.

After much reading here on LJ, and considering the work I've already done on the little tractor, I am leaning towards a leaky injector while the engine is off that dumps fuel in a single cylinder which burns off during the first few minutes after start.

So if it is injector related, how do I narrow down which injector would be starting to go bad? Can you repair an injector, or does it have to be replaced?

Other ideas?

Thanks gents!

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minu
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:44 am 
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What's the local temp where your located? Do you plug it in at night?

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minu
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:03 am 
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Mine has done this since new (8 winters) when the temperature drops below about -15C. This is accompanied by rough, loud starts. I always regarded it as normal and due to temperature. The Etecno1 plugs are supposedly not as hot so I'd expect them to contribute to this behaviour.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minu
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:13 am 
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You say it's definitely fuel. Why do you say that?

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minu
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:55 pm 
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greiswig wrote:
You say it's definitely fuel. Why do you say that?


With a Diesel engine thick white smoke is usually non combusted fuel due to poor detonation, from a cold engine typically but can also happen if you have a leaky injector (usually a very very small leak) and fuel sits on the top of the piston. I currently have this problem in my wives VW Golf TDI .
When it's cold and / or has been sitting for a while on start up I get the white smoke plume.
People in the parking lot after work don't like it very much and comment on the stinky diesel .. :banghead:
Her response is usually , " Do you get 1100KM per tank of fuel?"

It's on the list of things to fix , just not a priority and with almost 400,000 KM on it .. It might not get done .. :-)r

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minu
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:43 pm 
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mecne wrote:
greiswig wrote:
You say it's definitely fuel. Why do you say that?


With a Diesel engine thick white smoke is usually non combusted fuel due to poor detonation, from a cold engine typically but can also happen if you have a leaky injector (usually a very very small leak) and fuel sits on the top of the piston. I currently have this problem in my wives VW Golf TDI .
When it's cold and / or has been sitting for a while on start up I get the white smoke plume.
People in the parking lot after work don't like it very much and comment on the stinky diesel .. :banghead:
Her response is usually , " Do you get 1100KM per tank of fuel?"

It's on the list of things to fix , just not a priority and with almost 400,000 KM on it .. It might not get done .. :-)r


Perhaps I misspoke: to the OP, what makes you certain that the white smoke is "definitely fuel" in your specific case?

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minu
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:04 pm 
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I'm with greiswig -

Note: FYI
- white vapor with raw fuel odor is where the fuel never caught fire, exhausting as fuel vapor (don't back up to a camp-fire, eh)
- black smoke with burned fuel odor is where the fire went out and the fuel quit burning, exhausting as smoke

Hint: crank it up, walk back near the cloud of white VAPOR, get a good whiff - strong odor of raw Diesel fuel is unignited fuel - if not, post what you think you smell....................

Hard start and much white fuel vapors are directly related, particularly so in cold weather, and usually not related to leaky injector(s)
- usually resulted from slow cranking-rpm due to low battery volts\amps, oxidized posts\cables, deteriorated starter-motor, all of the above
- slow cranking-rpm in winter ambients prevents cylinder compression temperatures from rising quickly enuff to completely ignite the injected fuel, while ECM continues dumping fuel into the cylinders as if the engine is starting normally = hard start with white fuel vapor clouds
- the longer you crank until start\run, the larger and more the vapor clouds, and longer the dispersal interval, having also completely filled the various exhaust system components with raw fuel vapors (better hope the engine never back-fires, eh !!!!!!!!!)
- the longer the interval till engine comes up to operating temps and (cylinder temps = combustion temps) = extended interval of white vapor clouds

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Last edited by gmctd on Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minu
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:35 pm 
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Part of the reason I ask is that in my case a coolant leak into one cylinder caused the white smoke on startup, difficult starts, and although I am usually able to identify an odor thanks to a nose the size of a small country, in this case I couldn't pinpoint it. It did not have the usual very sweet smell of coolant being burned, and since I was running B100 at the time, I attributed the issue to fuel. ("Doesn't smell sickly sweet, or acrid like engine oil, so...")

I don't know what had me fooled: maybe the HOAT coolant smells a little different when burned than what I was used to. But I was fooled. And eventually the coolant leak got bad enough to nearly hydrolock that cylinder. I was lucky not to have caused more damage than occurred.

I'll add that even in single-digit temps with biodiesel blended with petro, I've never had big clouds of white exhaust on startup that lasted for a bit. I've had puffs of grey that immediately seemed to not be added to after the engine was running even at idle. Nothing more. Not to say that one of your injectors couldn't be leaking.

My understanding of the fuel rail is that it isn't a good pressure reservoir: without an air pocket in the system, I would expect pressure to leak off very quickly. In fact, when I shut mine down with good working injectors, I can see something (Pressure solenoid at back of rail?) bleed off pressure very quickly, going from 6kpsi down to around 90psi in short order. So I wouldn't expect enough pressure to stay in the rail to cause even a faulty injector to leak much into a cylinder after it is shut down. :2cents: and worth every penny for that opinion, though. No data other than cited.

So at the risk of biasing the OP, I would double-check to make sure that fuel is the issue.

gmctd wrote:
crank it up, walk back near the cloud of white VAPOR, get a good whiff - strong odor of raw Diesel fuel is uncombusted fuel - if not, post what you think you smell.

Sounds like a great approach. Or get your wife to crank it while you kneel back there in the firing line. Mine was way too eager to help out that way...kept giggling and muttering something about "not standing in the way of voluntary asphyxiation."

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minu
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:02 pm 
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Add me too on the verification of either raw fuel, or just 'steam' from a cold engine. If it's truly unburned diesel, you couldn't stand to have your nose in the cloud too long. (for gawds sake, don't light a match to see if it lights) If you still have an intact and functional catalytic convertor, the exhaust should smell just a tad 'ammonia' whilst cold, and then running towards the 'sweeter' side when up to temp.

Does the 'cloud' dissipate as you drive away? or does it hang forever? dissipating would be just simple water vapor, while the lingering cloud would be certainly considered fuel.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minu
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:05 pm 
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Burned anti-freeze coolant has a horrible odor after passing thru the combustion chamber, unidentifiable but exceeding nasty - you don't want too deep or too many whiffs of that putrifactious effluent - hot anti-freeze merely leaked into the exhaust system past the exhaust valve still retains the odor of fresh coolant, tho



Hmmmm - IIRC you're also the guy that knows the difference in breathing thru a pillowcase, and not being able to breathe thru a specifically-applied pillow in the night, right? :ROTFL:

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'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


Last edited by gmctd on Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minu
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:26 pm 
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gmctd wrote:
IIRC you're also the one that knows the difference in breathing thru a pillowcase, and not being able to breathe thru a specifically-applied pillow, right? :ROTFL:


You're sensing a pattern here too, eh?

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minu
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:32 pm 
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Possibly - might be prudent to excercise some caution if there's one pot of wassail for the carollers, and a separate special pot just for you, eh..........

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'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minu
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:27 am 
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Thanks for the replies. Here are some answers to the questions/comments:

- temps are mild 40F-70F recently. Hard starts are obviously worse down at 20F. But in Georgia we just don't see sub zero... thankfully.
- The smoke persists for some time (over five minutes if idling, only 2-3 minutes if driving) and then it's gone. The longer I let the car sit, the longer that period of smoke.
- #3 and #4 injectors are wet around the base. The car has 140k miles and I've never done anything to the injectors, nor have they ever been pulled.
- I made a video of the exhaust plume. And will post shortly.

I'm new at injector troubleshooting, but don't these things close off to keep fuel from running down into the piston once the engine is shut off and the rail pressure/firing signals stop? Maybe that's not happening as it should,

If there a way to test these things?

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2005 CRD: EHM, ORM, Intake Elbow Kit (EGR Delete), Isloated EGR Coolant Circuit, Samco Turbo Hoses, Timing Belt at 110k miles (new water pump, new thermostat, new radiator hoses, new idler pulley...from ID Parts), Etecno1 Glow Plugs, New OEM Turbo at 130k miles... approaching 140k as of Dec 14.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minu
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:10 am 
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I talked with Williams Diesel Service in Ocala FL, they are one of about 30 shops in the country with Bosch certified equipment to test and rebuild our injectors. As I thought, they think it is a worn injector. They test them for $25 each. I think I'll park the libby, pull all four and send them in.

Anyone have the link to an injector removal tutorial here on LJ? The folks at Williams said it should pretty easy.

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2005 CRD: EHM, ORM, Intake Elbow Kit (EGR Delete), Isloated EGR Coolant Circuit, Samco Turbo Hoses, Timing Belt at 110k miles (new water pump, new thermostat, new radiator hoses, new idler pulley...from ID Parts), Etecno1 Glow Plugs, New OEM Turbo at 130k miles... approaching 140k as of Dec 14.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minu
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:14 am 
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maxf15 wrote:
I talked with Williams Diesel Service in Ocala FL, they are one of about 30 shops in the country with Bosch certified equipment to test and rebuild our injectors. As I thought, they think it is a worn injector. They test them for $25 each. I think I'll park the libby, pull all four and send them in.

Anyone have the link to an injector removal tutorial here on LJ? The folks at Williams said it should pretty easy.


They think it's an injector...based on what you told them? Did you try as gmctd and I suggested? What fluid is near the injector bases?

Well,good luck. I hope you're right.

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2005 Jeep Liberty CRD
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At 138k, new head & gasket, timing belt, rockers and swearing vocabulary


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minu
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:00 pm 
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To remove the injectors it's best to soak them in pb blaster for few hours, that after you use compressed air to clean the area. The "crow foot" clamp it's the only thing that holds them in place, there is also a rubber seal/ring that's supposed to keep the dirt away. They do tend to get stuck though, so after soaking them in pb blaster, try rotating them left right to loosen them up, then you may try prying them out gently, I used a long pair of pliers on the injector where the bracket secures it to the valve cover. Don't forget to get some new injector washers (heat shield) when you install them back.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minu
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:12 pm 
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thermorex wrote:
To remove the injectors it's best to soak them in pb blaster for few hours, that after you use compressed air to clean the area. The "crow foot" clamp it's the only thing that holds them in place, there is also a rubber seal/ring that's supposed to keep the dirt away. They do tend to get stuck though, so after soaking them in pb blaster, try rotating them left right to loosen them up, then you may try prying them out gently, I used a long pair of pliers on the injector where the bracket secures it to the valve cover. Don't forget to get some new injector washers (heat shield) when you install them back.

If you're fortunate, the liquid around the injector bases will help in the removal procedure indicated above ^^^^

When the injector rotates freely enuff to remove, blow the stuff outta the area with shop air to prevent it falling down into the cylinders as the injectors are pulled out

The injector washers, copper or aluminum, are sealing washers required to prevent 2000psi\2000*F combustion pressures\gasses from leaking past the injectors - do not reinstall the injectors with the original set - only new will seal

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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 Post subject: Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minutes)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:32 pm 
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gmctd wrote:
thermorex wrote:
To remove the injectors it's best to soak them in pb blaster for few hours, that after you use compressed air to clean the area. The "crow foot" clamp it's the only thing that holds them in place, there is also a rubber seal/ring that's supposed to keep the dirt away. They do tend to get stuck though, so after soaking them in pb blaster, try rotating them left right to loosen them up, then you may try prying them out gently, I used a long pair of pliers on the injector where the bracket secures it to the valve cover. Don't forget to get some new injector washers (heat shield) when you install them back.

If you're fortunate, the liquid around the injector bases will help in the removal procedure indicated above ^^^^

When the injector rotates freely enuff to remove, blow the stuff outta the area with shop air to prevent it falling down into the cylinders as the injectors are pulled out

The injector washers, copper or aluminum, are sealing washers required to prevent 2000psi\2000*F combustion pressures\gasses from leaking past the injectors - do not reinstall the injectors with the original set - only new will seal


Very good stipulations, forgot to mention before, those injector crush washers deform when you torque the injector in, that's why they need to be replaced every time, in case you didn't know. You can buy them from idparts.com.

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 Post subject: Re: Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minu
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:05 am 
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Greiswig and gmtcd - Thanks for the pointers earlier in the post. I will try again getting my sniffer in that cloud... my sniffer works better than my long term memory, FWIW!

Out of curiosity, where is the exhaust valve that may allow coolant to leak? I thought those two systems were completely separate. Hmmmm.

Others... thanks for the pointers on how to remove the injectors. If I determine it's fuel, I figure it'll only cost me $100 plus shipping to have them tested, so I'll pull them and send them in.

_________________
___________
2005 CRD: EHM, ORM, Intake Elbow Kit (EGR Delete), Isloated EGR Coolant Circuit, Samco Turbo Hoses, Timing Belt at 110k miles (new water pump, new thermostat, new radiator hoses, new idler pulley...from ID Parts), Etecno1 Glow Plugs, New OEM Turbo at 130k miles... approaching 140k as of Dec 14.


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 Post subject: Re: Hard Start, Lots of White Smoke (but only for a few minu
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:33 am 
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maxf15 wrote:
Greiswig and gmtcd - Thanks for the pointers earlier in the post. I will try again getting my sniffer in that cloud... my sniffer works better than my long term memory, FWIW!

Out of curiosity, where is the exhaust valve that may allow coolant to leak? I thought those two systems were completely separate. Hmmmm. You are correct, sir: they are separate - however, separate tho they be, the head can crack in the water jacket around exhaust valve port area, or any other coolant leak into that area, which can cause the hot but not burned coolant steam in the exhaust gas effluent, and which would be white-ish vapor at the tailpipe, with said hot but not burned coolant odor

Others... thanks for the pointers on how to remove the injectors. If I determine it's fuel, I figure it'll only cost me $100 plus shipping to have them tested, so I'll pull them and send them in.

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go


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