Tho'ts on the VM 2.8L naturally-aspirated CRD

gmctd · **Posted:** Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:00 pm

moved

ArmyChief · **Posted:** Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:05 pm

geordi wrote:

ArmyChief wrote:

geordi wrote:

To my knowledge, the answer is no.

Would that include someone swapping the studs out from the TTY bolts on a currently good head without removing and replacing the gasket?

Yes, I have not heard of a single head gasket leak that has happened after ARP stud installation when there was not a leak prior on that gasket. Some have installed the ARP on their existing gasket without removing anything other than one bolt at a time, others have done the full job with a fresh gasket. I have done both styles for about 10 different people as well.

You know I thought I was finished spending $$ for at least a while. Now you have me thinking I might want to do the ARP studs now.

Is there a thread with the procedure NOT replacing the head gasket? How difficult is removing the valve cover...doesn't our motor have a unique design where intake and valve cover are one?

My guess, if that's true..I should clean intake out eh?

I know my rockers are good (well, can't tell about needle bearings). However, I do get 18 GPS on the MAF !

ArmyChief · **Posted:** Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:13 pm

You know VM is also the manufacture for the new EcoDeisel. I could go on Alldata and get a head bolt pattern to see what they did with the new 3.0.

Lastly, I see FelPro does not make a gasket for our motors. Looking at the pic on IDParts, it appears the factory gasket is an old single layer type gasket. Wonder if a newer MLS design would be beneficial? I know when I worked at Dodge, the 2.0 motor started out as a single gasket, until the rear right O-Ring ripped out, then Dodge changed to a MLS design (FelPro).

I could contact FelPro engineering, maybe if I could get a bunch of failed ahead gaskets..send them to FelPro and see if they'd be willing to build a gasket.

greiswig · **Posted:** Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:45 pm

ArmyChief wrote:

Wonder if a newer MLS design would be beneficial?

The stock and IDParts gaskets are already multi-layer steel. One stiff core which I think also carries the burden of the correct thickness, and two very thin outside layers with embossments for sealing specific areas. There is a very thin layer of something on all surfaces, and if it is like most MLS gaskets that will be viton.

I know a guy who, on starting his second HG job after the first one didn't seal the coolant leak, measured that the sleeves seemed to have dropped very slightly below the level of the deck. Possibly due to fretting of the shim or sleeve at the bottom. Or maybe Mario never installed it right in the first place. Anyway, I suggested that perhaps he could make a shim that would go on top of the sleeve shoulder to seal better. In other words, gain back that .001" that the manual calls for with a shim right under the gasket. It seems to have worked, at least for now. You'd have to ask him how much fun it was to make the stainless steel shims.

I suspect that the thermal conduction through the MLS gasket is trivial compared to what the coolant through the head does, so I doubt a composite gasket would cause issues due to lack of thermal conductivity. But, as with most opinions on the web, you're getting what you've paid for it.

gmctd · **Posted:** Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:40 pm

So much good input, so little time..........

Aluminum survival in combustion temperatures - air is ~20% oxygen 80% nitrogen, for these intents and purposes
- no inner-cylinder surfaces come in contact with the burning fuel - the combustion-heated nitrogen expands faster than the expanding
flame-front, shielding the piston crown and cylinder head from melting - oil-spray into the piston underside, coolant passages in the head,
and incoming fresh-air on each intake stroke keep exposed surfaces well below aluminum melting point

Normally, no Diesel fuel is burning when the exhaust valve opens
- ever noticed how, at a birthday party, someone is poised to blow out the merrily-burning candles, when whooff!, the flame(s)
is extinguished - too much oxygen for too little fuel
- pilot injection allows fuel injection as far down the power-stroke as there is available oxygen for combustion, then injection stops,
flame goes out = maximum torque, minimum wasted fuel - exh valve opens, piston shoves combusted exhaust gases out - exh valve still open,
intake valve opens, BOOST blows any residual exh gasses out, cylinder fills with fresh 20%oxygen\80%nitrogen charge - inject fuel, repeat as required...........

Heat-shielding
- since inception all Chev small-blocks and big blocks have utilized heat-shields to shield the spark-plugs from exhaust manifold
radiation - very effective, even tho there is nothing combustible about a spark-plug - the starter solenoid, also non-combustible,
is also heat-shielded
- all oems placed a heat-shield on\above the catalytic converter, shielding the passenger floor area
- engine exhaust heat radiates into ambient temps, cooling rapidly - however, if another heat-source is radiating close within the radiation
area, the resultant temps are averaged: the turbine scroll could be wrapped\shielded to effect more efficient radiation\cooling of exhaust-manifold,
allowing the head to be exposed to lower temperatures - added benefit would be higher exh gas energy into the turbine for quicker spool-up,
which we do not really need, having VVT technology to ensure quick spool-up - shielding would likely not be entirely effective

Number of head-bolts per head
- not as important as number of head-bolts directly surrounding the cylinders for maximum clamping force
- VM CRD has 18 total, but eight (count'em: '8) are ~2-3" from the cylinders they are supposed to be directly clamping - not even good
for aluminum head in turbocharged service
- cylinder bore affects clamping force distribution - the VM CRD is 2.8L, one of the largest-displacement 4-cyls available, not to mention
the fact that it is also a Diesel engine - a 1.9L engine would require less bolts per cylinder because the bolts would be closer together
around the smaller bore - cast-iron head would increase the effect

Head metallurgy
- aluminum absorbs heat and divests that heat (expands\contracts) much more rapidly than cast-iron, making it thermally unstable, even
cast-aluminum - aluminum requires more directly-distributed clamping force than cast-iron = more bolts per cylinder
- cast-iron is more rigid than aluminum, more thermally stable - still, most turbo-charged Diesel engines have at least 5-bolts closely
adjacent the cylinder, some have 6 per cylinder - IIRC, some of the big-bore larger-displacement Diesel engines have seven per cylinder

Cutting head\block for circular groove to utilize copper o'ring gasket - would be an excellent solution butcept for two major concerns
- aluminum is softer than copper - which will "crush" first? Would a steel shim washer between the head and the copper ring help?
- the 2.8L engine has an aluminum head with only 4 widely-spaced bolts per cylinder = uneven "crush", what we already got

Studs vs TTY bolts, or even standard bolts for tension\compression service
- studs say it all: block\stud threads are fully engaged at beginning\end of torquing sequence - no twisting forces in block during torquing

I would be very interested in results from checking the bolt-holes across the head with a depth-micrometer, noting any where the dimension
between the bolt-head surface and the deck surface was less than the others, indicating heat-stressed crush\compression of the aluminum
from the head-bolt surface side
- this would give same symptoms as loose or heat-stretched bolts, with reduced torque required for removal

Also, it might be a good idea to post the ARP stud part number(s) in this relevant thread

ArmyChief · **Posted:** Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:15 pm

ArmyChief wrote:

Is there a thread with the procedure NOT replacing the head gasket? How difficult is removing the valve cover...doesn't our motor have a unique design where intake and valve cover are one?

My guess, if that's true..I should clean intake out eh?

I know my rockers are good (well, can't tell about needle bearings). However, I do get 18 GPS on the MAF !

Anyone?

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:46 pm

Most people just call me to do the job...

Seriously, this isn't a small job. If you haven't done the timing belt job, this involves all of that work, and about another 2 hours of disassembly to get the valve cover / intake off.

I generally suggest to people that they should take this opportunity to buy the Weeks101 elbow kit, as it makes the reassembly suck a lot less. This is a solid 8 hours of work the way I do it, and the book value for the job is 12 hours. That is the same job for replacing the rockers, but you don't need to replace the rockers to do the studs - they are just next to each other.

Fair warning: While I charge for this job, you DO get the full timing belt and water pump service as part of it, and the Weeks elbow installed as well if you have bought it. I think the rate is very fair considering the amount of work, $1300 is the total, plus travel. The nice thing is, I do it in your driveway or garage, you don't even need a shop if you don't have one! I bring everything with me.

gmctd · **Posted:** Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:13 am

ArmyChief wrote:

Is there a thread with the procedure NOT replacing the head gasket? How difficult is removing the valve cover...doesn't our motor have a unique design where intake and valve cover are one?

My guess, if that's true..I should clean intake out eh?

I know my rockers are good (well, can't tell about needle bearings). However, I do get 18 GPS on the MAF !

Anyone?

See here, and remember, to get to this stage requires entire camshafts\cover and timing-belt removal :

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=65524&hilit=arp+studs

gmctd · **Posted:** Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:25 am

Ok, my bad - took forever, but my SEARCHes go like this:

SEARCH: Dodge Ram bumper (don't dare use bumpers - noone lists truck bumpers)
Result: 0ne (1) result found for your search criterion: rubber baby buggy bumpers (shortcut)
Did you mean: JayLo (shortcut)
Did you mean: Kim Kardashian (shortcut)
Refine your search criterion: ? :furious:

Also, the SEARCH function on this forum requires at least three letters of the author's name - hellIdunno, who cares - just give me all the information on blah-blah that I requested, then I'll tell you who authored it - I'll give ya a hint: look in this forum: btsflplk - no results found, ad infinitum :banghead:

So, here's all the info you could possibly desire on ARP head studs for the VM 2.8L CRD - and thanks to those who endeavored mightily to provide this information, with particular mention to LMWatBullRun for the most excellent video walk-thru: {aside: a pox on alla you guys (and you know who you are, eh) that didn't post this shortcut at the first hint of ARP stud-ery - many aborted searches always gives me a headache} :dizzy:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=65524&hilit=arp+studs

This also partly answers the question concerning bolt-head surface degradation in the hole-depth, this type resulted from twisting torque with no interfacing steel washer between head and aluminum
- the soft aluminum would bind the bolt-head when attempting to achieve torque specs, resulting in erratic compliance
- the deformed soft aluminum would also bind the bolt-head when attempting removal in areas where no heat-related aluminum compression is noted, resulting in greater force required to "break-loose"

Still would like to know if there was any heat-related crush resulting in reduced hole-depth dimension in the high-heat areas between the cylinder and the exhaust ports

ArmyChief · **Posted:** Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:01 am

Ha..ha..ha. I know how the serch function works..however, thanks Sooooooo much

Well, I just finished reading ALL 15 pages. Since I just did my timing belt, I'm not a "rool coal" hot tuner, and more importantly will probably only drive this car about 5-7,000 miles a year. I think I'll hold off on ARP studs until next timing belt interval (8 years)

...or if I experience coolant loss issues.

Can't thank you guys enough...I love my little CRD !

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Dec 21, 2014 3:19 am

5 years. 5 years. Do NOT wait 8 years to do the belt again, the degradation I am seeing in the belts that are already 8 years old is SCARY.

flman · **Posted:** Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:24 am

ArmyChief wrote:

Ha..ha..ha. I know how the serch function works..however, thanks Sooooooo much

Well, I just finished reading ALL 15 pages. Since I just did my timing belt, I'm not a "rool coal" hot tuner, and more importantly will probably only drive this car about 5-7,000 miles a year. I think I'll hold off on ARP studs until next timing belt interval (8 years)

...or if I experience coolant loss issues.

Can't thank you guys enough...I love my little CRD !

At 93K I would do the studs now, otherwise it is more work to do the head and gasket later. I just did studs only in my LTD, and it took about 10 hours working at my leasure. I am thinking about 15 hours plus the extra gaskets and parts to pull the head and put it back on.

ArmyChief · **Posted:** Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:43 am

geordi wrote:

5 years. 5 years. Do NOT wait 8 years to do the belt again, the degradation I am seeing in the belts that are already 8 years old is SCARY.

Yes sir..thanks

ArmyChief · **Posted:** Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:47 am

flman wrote:

ArmyChief wrote:

Ha..ha..ha. I know how the serch function works..however, thanks Sooooooo much

Well, I just finished reading ALL 15 pages. Since I just did my timing belt, I'm not a "rool coal" hot tuner, and more importantly will probably only drive this car about 5-7,000 miles a year. I think I'll hold off on ARP studs until next timing belt interval (8 years)

...or if I experience coolant loss issues.

Can't thank you guys enough...I love my little CRD !

At 93K I would do the studs now, otherwise it is more work to do the head and gasket later. I just did studs only in my LTD, and it took about 10 hours working at my leisure. I am thinking about 15 hours plus the extra gaskets and parts to pull the head and put it back on.

Ok, I'll consider it.... I read the 15 page article...other than studs, ARP Lube, thread chaser, Injector O-rings/copper washers, reamer (to clean ridge on head where washers go, should I get a new valve cover gasket?..any other parts I should get?

I think I remember somewhere the guy saying to order two bolts cause you may need to cut the heads off or something?

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:25 pm

Don't worry about the reamer, that is old information. The "ridge" squashes quite easily under the installation torque, and doesn't pose a problem at all. It is only a thousandth or two anyway.

The two extra bolts to cut the heads off, are regular metric thread bolts to use as guides when re-installing the valve cover.

ibedonc · **Joined:** Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:40 pm **Posts:** 236

geordi wrote:

5 years. 5 years. Do NOT wait 8 years to do the belt again, the degradation I am seeing in the belts that are already 8 years old is SCARY.

yep , I did not even go 4 years and 80k miles on my 05 when you did mine and was seeing the cracking

flman · **Posted:** Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:53 am

ArmyChief wrote:

flman wrote:

ArmyChief wrote:

Ha..ha..ha. I know how the serch function works..however, thanks Sooooooo much

Well, I just finished reading ALL 15 pages. Since I just did my timing belt, I'm not a "rool coal" hot tuner, and more importantly will probably only drive this car about 5-7,000 miles a year. I think I'll hold off on ARP studs until next timing belt interval (8 years)

...or if I experience coolant loss issues.

Can't thank you guys enough...I love my little CRD !

At 93K I would do the studs now, otherwise it is more work to do the head and gasket later. I just did studs only in my LTD, and it took about 10 hours working at my leisure. I am thinking about 15 hours plus the extra gaskets and parts to pull the head and put it back on.

Ok, I'll consider it.... I read the 15 page article...other than studs, ARP Lube, thread chaser, Injector O-rings/copper washers, reamer (to clean ridge on head where washers go, should I get a new valve cover gasket?..any other parts I should get?

I think I remember somewhere the guy saying to order two bolts cause you may need to cut the heads off or something?

You should only need the valve cover gasket, and injector copper washers and O rings. You will need the 2 bolts if you do not have the Miller tool kits.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:28 pm

To update any old information you may have - The current procedure is this:

Once you have the valve cover off and the rockers exposed, you are ready to remove the bolts.
PLEASE follow the instructions that I have written up in the research project sticky thread to record the breaking strength of each bolt.

You do not need to do anything (and should NOT do anything) to the wide threads of the stud that goes into the block. Use the ARP lube (included in the box of studs) with a q-tip on the fine threads of the stud, inside the nut, and on all three faces of the washer and nut. You don't need to go crazy with it, but a thin coating of silver is sufficient.

Assemble the nut and washer onto the stud, and thread it down so the top of the stud is flush with the top of the nut. NOW using a hex key, thread the stud into the block finger tight, and you are ready to torque.

Depending on the location, either 130lb-ft or 125lb-ft are your target, and you can go directly from zero torque to the final in one process. You do NOT need to "loosen-and-re-torque" or "torque in stages" with the new process from ARP. This does make the job go a bit faster.

I'm still available (I'm actually on the East Coast of Florida at the moment) if you decide to call in for reinforcements.

ArmyChief · **Posted:** Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:57 pm

130 for inside bolts, 120-125 for outer..right?

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:17 pm

Correct.

Tho'ts on the VM 2.8L naturally-aspirated CRD

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