Tho'ts on the VM 2.8L naturally-aspirated CRD

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

geordi wrote:

To update any old information you may have - The current procedure is this:

Once you have the valve cover off and the rockers exposed, you are ready to remove the bolts.
PLEASE follow the instructions that I have written up in the research project sticky thread to record the breaking strength of each bolt.

You do not need to do anything (and should NOT do anything) to the wide threads of the stud that goes into the block. Use the ARP lube (included in the box of studs) with a q-tip on the fine threads of the stud, inside the nut, and on all three faces of the washer and nut. You don't need to go crazy with it, but a thin coating of silver is sufficient.

Assemble the nut and washer onto the stud, and thread it down so the top of the stud is flush with the top of the nut. NOW using a hex key, thread the stud into the block finger tight, and you are ready to torque.

Depending on the location, either 130lb-ft or 125lb-ft are your target, and you can go directly from zero torque to the final in one process. You do NOT need to "loosen-and-re-torque" or "torque in stages" with the new process from ARP. This does make the job go a bit faster.

I'm still available (I'm actually on the East Coast of Florida at the moment) if you decide to call in for reinforcements.

Could you provide more details on ARP's new process that negates the need for torquing in stages? Torquing at a low level with manufacturer sequence helps reduce the potential for head warpage and lessens torque variation.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:17 pm

GreenDieselEngineering wrote:

geordi wrote:

To update any old information you may have - The current procedure is this:

Once you have the valve cover off and the rockers exposed, you are ready to remove the bolts.
PLEASE follow the instructions that I have written up in the research project sticky thread to record the breaking strength of each bolt.

You do not need to do anything (and should NOT do anything) to the wide threads of the stud that goes into the block. Use the ARP lube (included in the box of studs) with a q-tip on the fine threads of the stud, inside the nut, and on all three faces of the washer and nut. You don't need to go crazy with it, but a thin coating of silver is sufficient.

Assemble the nut and washer onto the stud, and thread it down so the top of the stud is flush with the top of the nut. NOW using a hex key, thread the stud into the block finger tight, and you are ready to torque.

Depending on the location, either 130lb-ft or 125lb-ft are your target, and you can go directly from zero torque to the final in one process. You do NOT need to "loosen-and-re-torque" or "torque in stages" with the new process from ARP. This does make the job go a bit faster.

I'm still available (I'm actually on the East Coast of Florida at the moment) if you decide to call in for reinforcements.

Could you provide more details on ARP's new process that negates the need for torquing in stages? Torquing at a low level with manufacturer sequence helps reduce the potential for head warpage and lessens torque variation.

Hey Keith,

Larry (LMW) knows more about it than I do, and I don't have the paperwork from ARP in front of me at the moment or even really know where it is right now. Moving sucks!

What I remember about the discussion was that ARP themselves decided that if you were doing a one-by-one replacement and NOT lifting the head, then the newer formulation of ARP lube was sufficient for a one-and-done torque on each bolt. They determined that there wasn't a statistically significant increase in reliability or change in thread grip / galling to warrant multiple torque events versus a single procedure. Head warping should be eliminated as a possibility if only one bolt is removed at a time, and in that instance, the factory pattern also is somewhat irrelevant as clamping is maintained with all the other bolts / studs being fully tight until their turn.

With regard to installation of a fresh gasket, that is a different animal entirely. If ALL BOLTS are removed at the same time for a gasket replacement, then YES, the factory pattern should be followed, and torqued in stages of 70/90/130 or 70/90/120-125 based on the center or outer rows.

Hope that clears things up a bit.

ArmyChief · **Posted:** Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:29 pm

geordi wrote:

GreenDieselEngineering wrote:

geordi wrote:

To update any old information you may have - The current procedure is this:

Once you have the valve cover off and the rockers exposed, you are ready to remove the bolts.
PLEASE follow the instructions that I have written up in the research project sticky thread to record the breaking strength of each bolt.

You do not need to do anything (and should NOT do anything) to the wide threads of the stud that goes into the block. Use the ARP lube (included in the box of studs) with a q-tip on the fine threads of the stud, inside the nut, and on all three faces of the washer and nut. You don't need to go crazy with it, but a thin coating of silver is sufficient.

Assemble the nut and washer onto the stud, and thread it down so the top of the stud is flush with the top of the nut. NOW using a hex key, thread the stud into the block finger tight, and you are ready to torque.

Depending on the location, either 130lb-ft or 125lb-ft are your target, and you can go directly from zero torque to the final in one process. You do NOT need to "loosen-and-re-torque" or "torque in stages" with the new process from ARP. This does make the job go a bit faster.

I'm still available (I'm actually on the East Coast of Florida at the moment) if you decide to call in for reinforcements.

Could you provide more details on ARP's new process that negates the need for torquing in stages? Torquing at a low level with manufacturer sequence helps reduce the potential for head warpage and lessens torque variation.

Hey Keith,

Larry (LMW) knows more about it than I do, and I don't have the paperwork from ARP in front of me at the moment or even really know where it is right now. Moving sucks!

What I remember about the discussion was that ARP themselves decided that if you were doing a one-by-one replacement and NOT lifting the head, then the newer formulation of ARP lube was sufficient for a one-and-done torque on each bolt. They determined that there wasn't a statistically significant increase in reliability or change in thread grip / galling to warrant multiple torque events versus a single procedure. Head warping should be eliminated as a possibility if only one bolt is removed at a time, and in that instance, the factory pattern also is somewhat irrelevant as clamping is maintained with all the other bolts / studs being fully tight until their turn.

With regard to installation of a fresh gasket, that is a different animal entirely. If ALL BOLTS are removed at the same time for a gasket replacement, then YES, the factory pattern should be followed, and torqued in stages of 70/90/130 or 70/90/120-125 based on the center or outer rows.

Hope that clears things up a bit.

Didn't you and Larry have a difference of opinion on one-and-done if I remember. He suggested starting at 100 ft lbs and torquing in sequence

flman · **Posted:** Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:38 pm

With stud by stud, no head or gasket removal, one by one the first round was 100, then I hit them all at 125/130. And I lubed the threads with ARP lube on both ends per ARP.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:00 pm

I don't recall Larry and I disagreeing about the stages when the head is not removed, but I suppose it is possible.

The thing is, if you aren't fully torquing each bolt when you are working on an already-compressed gasket, you are actually loosening it initially before you are re-clamping it. This could potentially cause shifting.

The gasket is already compressed, so no "even compressing" of the gasket needs to take place if you fully torque each stud while all the other 17 remain at full pressure.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:14 pm

Just found this thread!

For those interested:

What I did was to remove one bolt, torque to 100 FP in 3 stages, and go on to the next. Once I had them all replaced, then I torqued in stages to 130/120 for the reasons GDE lists. This probably was more work, but not knowing that anybody had ever done this before, I wanted to make the increase in clamping force as gradual as possible. Geordi's point about simply going right to the final torque with ARP lube is well taken, but at the time I did it, I did not know for sure whether the head would take the load, and in point of fact, my original target torque was 140 FP. I found that this torque level caused local head yielding at the edges, so backed off 10 FP and set the center ones to 130 and the outers to 120.

I recall that there was considerable variance in the turn angle required to get to the lower level torques, but that once everything was buttoned up to 100 FP, then after that the takeup was smooth and repeatable with little to no variation from stud to stud.
When I do the next engine, I will be doing a whole HG replacement and that will be done 50/75/100/120 then 130 on the center studs.

Geordi has done a bunch of these with good results, so I would not question his methods.

Hope this helps.

LMW

geordi wrote:

GreenDieselEngineering wrote:

geordi wrote:

To update any old information you may have - The current procedure is this:

Once you have the valve cover off and the rockers exposed, you are ready to remove the bolts.
PLEASE follow the instructions that I have written up in the research project sticky thread to record the breaking strength of each bolt.

You do not need to do anything (and should NOT do anything) to the wide threads of the stud that goes into the block. Use the ARP lube (included in the box of studs) with a q-tip on the fine threads of the stud, inside the nut, and on all three faces of the washer and nut. You don't need to go crazy with it, but a thin coating of silver is sufficient.

Assemble the nut and washer onto the stud, and thread it down so the top of the stud is flush with the top of the nut. NOW using a hex key, thread the stud into the block finger tight, and you are ready to torque.

Depending on the location, either 130lb-ft or 125lb-ft are your target, and you can go directly from zero torque to the final in one process. You do NOT need to "loosen-and-re-torque" or "torque in stages" with the new process from ARP. This does make the job go a bit faster.

I'm still available (I'm actually on the East Coast of Florida at the moment) if you decide to call in for reinforcements.

Could you provide more details on ARP's new process that negates the need for torquing in stages? Torquing at a low level with manufacturer sequence helps reduce the potential for head warpage and lessens torque variation.

Hey Keith,

Larry (LMW) knows more about it than I do, and I don't have the paperwork from ARP in front of me at the moment or even really know where it is right now. Moving sucks!

What I remember about the discussion was that ARP themselves decided that if you were doing a one-by-one replacement and NOT lifting the head, then the newer formulation of ARP lube was sufficient for a one-and-done torque on each bolt. They determined that there wasn't a statistically significant increase in reliability or change in thread grip / galling to warrant multiple torque events versus a single procedure. Head warping should be eliminated as a possibility if only one bolt is removed at a time, and in that instance, the factory pattern also is somewhat irrelevant as clamping is maintained with all the other bolts / studs being fully tight until their turn.

With regard to installation of a fresh gasket, that is a different animal entirely. If ALL BOLTS are removed at the same time for a gasket replacement, then YES, the factory pattern should be followed, and torqued in stages of 70/90/130 or 70/90/120-125 based on the center or outer rows.

Hope that clears things up a bit.

Rixram · **Posted:** Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:28 pm

gmctd wrote:

Yeah, I'm kinda the resident harbinger of doom and destruction :grim:

........ or......... now we know why there were only two (count'em: 2) production runs of the li'l 2.8L puffer - also why DCJ put their primo swat team for EPA certification, GDE, out to pasture early-on :dead:

Too bad.....................

Perhaps, but the key thing that caused the hard stop of production was that in 2007, all the after-exhaust treatments and ULSD standards went into effect, and DCX wasn't interesting in the capital investment in making the 2.8L meet those standards for emissions.

Rixram · **Posted:** Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:35 pm

gmctd wrote:

Ok, my bad - took forever, but my SEARCHes go like this:

SEARCH: Dodge Ram bumper (don't dare use bumpers - noone lists truck bumpers)
Result: 0ne (1) result found for your search criterion: rubber baby buggy bumpers (shortcut)
Did you mean: JayLo (shortcut)
Did you mean: Kim Kardashian (shortcut)
Refine your search criterion: ? :furious:

What the heck piece of crap are you using as a search engine? Bing??!?!? LOL

Bushman5 · **Joined:** Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:05 am **Posts:** 276

so can we run this engine sans turbo? (im not concerned about torque or off the line ......)

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:28 am

In theory... But why would you want to? Is your turbo dead? If you don't have a turbo, then you have to figure out the connection between the manifold and the downpipe, and then the oil line needs to be capped too... I think it probably is better if the turbo is just replaced if it is bad. The computer won't be aware that the turbo is missing, and will be massively overfueling for the amount of air that it is inhaling. That will put significant heat stress on the valves, possibly shortening their life considerably and if one lets go, you will lose the entire engine.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:33 am

Bushman5 wrote:

so can we run this engine sans turbo? (im not concerned about torque or off the line ......)

You can run any engine without a turbo.
I just may not run well.
Our CRD engine will run without a turbo, belch black smoke, have low power, and be a total dog.

Have you ever driven a truck with a GM 6.2L non-turbo diesel?
Over twice the displacement with the same amount of torque. And a total dog of an engine.

mass-hole · **Posted:** Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:11 pm

Bushman5 wrote:

so can we run this engine sans turbo? (im not concerned about torque or off the line ......)

It runs but as stated it smokes like crazy and can barely move the jeep.You would definately need a tune and beyond that you would be looking at a 50%+ loss of power since the turbo provides ~2.5:1 pressure ratio. Less air means less fuel.

If you are really worried about it just have someone detune yours for lower boost.

Tho'ts on the VM 2.8L naturally-aspirated CRD

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