Bad engine noise?

lacabrera · **Posted:** Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:58 pm

I thought I would post an up to date progress. Removed the engine and dismantled it completely. The front and rear main crankshaft bearing shells shows signs of ware the 3 centre ones not to bad. Very unusual design the centre 3 being held by the circular aluminium bearing carriers. The crankshaft is good, no need to be reground. Con rod shells also show some ware. Just rebuilt it today with new shells, front and rear seals new piston rings. Just one note the rear crankshaft bearing is an arse to replace. The con rods are forged and are broken at the crank end not machine cut very weird but I guess it works? One advantage I guess, you can not mix up the caps because no two are alike.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:19 pm

OMG.
You did all that and didnt take pictures to share with the rest of us?
Shame on you.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:16 pm

lacabrera wrote:

Made a start today delving into removing the oil pan, Yes you can remove it with out removing the engine from the car or removing the front cross member, but its not for the faint hearted and would be impossible with out first removing the head. If you remove the engine mounts and lift the engine as far as it will go, you can drop the sump enough to gain access to the bolt that holds the oil pick up pipe in the oil pan and remove both together. For me the above was a waste of time as the engine has to be removed to replace the main crankshaft shells/bearings :banghead:

and possibly have the crank reground.
Just in case some one requires to remove the oil pan, when the engine mounts are removed and lift the engine the gap between the upper and lower mounting points must be at least 5.3/4" to stand any chance of removing the oil pan?

So, do you think that you could have pulled the crank and did all of this if you dropped the cradle and front dif? I'm guessing you might mangle the bearings trying to pull the crank out of the back side, but if you tilted the front of the engine up a bit, maybe this is doable? I don't see any need to pull the head if you pulled all of the underneath bits. Am I wrong?

Many thanks for the info! :JEEPIN:

lacabrera · **Posted:** Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:38 pm

Mountainman wrote:

lacabrera wrote:

Made a start today delving into removing the oil pan, Yes you can remove it with out removing the engine from the car or removing the front cross member, but its not for the faint hearted and would be impossible with out first removing the head. If you remove the engine mounts and lift the engine as far as it will go, you can drop the sump enough to gain access to the bolt that holds the oil pick up pipe in the oil pan and remove both together. For me the above was a waste of time as the engine has to be removed to replace the main crankshaft shells/bearings :banghead:

and possibly have the crank reground.
Just in case some one requires to remove the oil pan, when the engine mounts are removed and lift the engine the gap between the upper and lower mounting points must be at least 5.3/4" to stand any chance of removing the oil pan?

So, do you think that you could have pulled the crank and did all of this if you dropped the cradle and front dif? I'm guessing you might mangle the bearings trying to pull the crank out of the back side, but if you tilted the front of the engine up a bit, maybe this is doable? I don't see any need to pull the head if you pulled all of the underneath bits. Am I wrong?

Many thanks for the info! :JEEPIN:

Yes I would say its possible to just remove the transmission and pull the crank, but because of the difficulty in replacing the front bearing and replacing the sump with the oil feed pipe I would suggest removing the motor.
Sorry guys for not taking photo's, if I had known it was of interest to others :banghead:

Just a note on head bolts, I just can not see how you manage to torque them to 125lb @ around 100lb the alloy casting starts to distort and causes the hydraulic adjusters to stick in the bores.
Yes you do need to pull the head to be able to remove the pistons.

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:53 pm

lacabrera wrote:

Mountainman wrote:

lacabrera wrote:

Made a start today delving into removing the oil pan, Yes you can remove it with out removing the engine from the car or removing the front cross member, but its not for the faint hearted and would be impossible with out first removing the head. If you remove the engine mounts and lift the engine as far as it will go, you can drop the sump enough to gain access to the bolt that holds the oil pick up pipe in the oil pan and remove both together. For me the above was a waste of time as the engine has to be removed to replace the main crankshaft shells/bearings :banghead:

and possibly have the crank reground.
Just in case some one requires to remove the oil pan, when the engine mounts are removed and lift the engine the gap between the upper and lower mounting points must be at least 5.3/4" to stand any chance of removing the oil pan?

So, do you think that you could have pulled the crank and did all of this if you dropped the cradle and front dif? I'm guessing you might mangle the bearings trying to pull the crank out of the back side, but if you tilted the front of the engine up a bit, maybe this is doable? I don't see any need to pull the head if you pulled all of the underneath bits. Am I wrong?

Many thanks for the info! :JEEPIN:

Yes I would say its possible to just remove the transmission and pull the crank, but because of the difficulty in replacing the front bearing and replacing the sump with the oil feed pipe I would suggest removing the motor.
Sorry guys for not taking photo's, if I had known it was of interest to others :banghead:

Just a note on head bolts, I just can not see how you manage to torque them to 125lb @ around 100lb the alloy casting starts to distort and causes the hydraulic adjusters to stick in the bores.
Yes you do need to pull the head to be able to remove the pistons.

I'm more and more leaning towards GMCTD's thought that its the lack of a washer rather than the tty bolts causing the issues with out heads.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:55 pm

dang, yeah, it sounds like it's a waste of time unless someone is just trying to replace a cracked oil pan to leave the engine in :banghead:

I remember a year or so ago someone had a bad pan, at least you helped to verify that it's possible to swap one without pulling the engine :pepper:

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:01 pm

Mike, the lack of a washer isn't the problem with the cylinder head. If that was the case, then we would be seeing problems on many different bolt locations, rather than centering around the exhaust side of the motor and specifically the hottest point which is between #2 and #3. Read through the research thread and draw your own conclusions if you have the time.

TTY bolts are not uniform in their performance, and within the spec of this engine, I am starting to also wonder if the selection of a laminated steel gasket was also part of the problem. Racers use laminated steel gaskets because they can sustain much higher temperatures and pressures... But they also are usually installed with much higher clamping forces. Our TTY bolts don't deliver those higher clamping forces and the thin head can't support much more than it is already doing anyway. A washer that precisely fits the recess in the head does help to evenly distribute the clamping force and possibly resist that crushing somewhat, transferring more clamping to the gasket. But the difference between the TTY bolt head and the washer is marginal at best. I don't think that is the ultimate source of the better results with the studs, I think the stronger performance of the studs is the answer.

What would be interesting to note, is whether a thicker gasket (one size up from whatever the engine currently has) would be compressed "better" than the original spec for that engine, or if a single-ply gasket could be found and if that would perform better than the laminated steel gasket. I'm hesitant to suggest changing the gasket thickness, just because I believe the head may need to actually contact the top of the cylinder liner in order to properly retain the liner and prevent internal oil / water mixing... This is a decent possibility based on the member that recently posted about his water entering the oil as fast as he could pour it in! (A dealer had worked on his engine... What did they do wrong is the $64 question)

But studs are MUCH more reliable than the tty bolts, always.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:23 pm

Quick update finished working on the little diesel today. Before installing I purchased some new gauges, oil pressure, oil temperature and a boost gauge. installed the pressure and temperature sensors on the main oil line on the block done a quick connect to the oil pressure gauge for the first start up after rebuild. 29 psi@830rpm dropping to 26psi hot. well happy with that.

thermorex · **Posted:** Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:37 pm

lacabrera wrote:

Quick update finished working on the little diesel today. Before installing I purchased some new gauges, oil pressure, oil temperature and a boost gauge. installed the pressure and temperature sensors on the main oil line on the block done a quick connect to the oil pressure gauge for the first start up after rebuild. 29 psi@830rpm dropping to 26psi hot. well happy with that.

Do you remember the oil temp when you have 26psi? You also have 5w30 oil, correct?

lacabrera · **Posted:** Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:04 am

thermorex wrote:

lacabrera wrote:

Quick update finished working on the little diesel today. Before installing I purchased some new gauges, oil pressure, oil temperature and a boost gauge. installed the pressure and temperature sensors on the main oil line on the block done a quick connect to the oil pressure gauge for the first start up after rebuild. 29 psi@830rpm dropping to 26psi hot. well happy with that.

Do you remember the oil temp when you have 26psi? You also have 5w30 oil, correct?

I have only connected the oil pressure gauge temporarily at the moment, will come back and post more info when I have connected up all gauges. Trying to find a suitable place to pass the wires through the bulk head at the mo? Any idea whats the best place. The main engine harness pass through on the right side viewed from the seat but because its right hand drive the brake booster making it difficult to gain access to the grommet.

thermorex · **Posted:** Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:19 pm

lacabrera wrote:

thermorex wrote:

lacabrera wrote:

Quick update finished working on the little diesel today. Before installing I purchased some new gauges, oil pressure, oil temperature and a boost gauge. installed the pressure and temperature sensors on the main oil line on the block done a quick connect to the oil pressure gauge for the first start up after rebuild. 29 psi@830rpm dropping to 26psi hot. well happy with that.

Do you remember the oil temp when you have 26psi? You also have 5w30 oil, correct?

I have only connected the oil pressure gauge temporarily at the moment, will come back and post more info when I have connected up all gauges. Trying to find a suitable place to pass the wires through the bulk head at the mo? Any idea whats the best place. The main engine harness pass through on the right side viewed from the seat but because its right hand drive the brake booster making it difficult to gain access to the grommet.

I routed it through the same spot I believe, but on the left, driver side as we drive on the correct side of the road over here

. If you follow the grey plastic loom it goes straight there, but it's a bit hard to see clearly since I have a bunch of wires going through, including 2 gauge 1 wires from the rear dual battery setup. To route those few wires though, I made a hole through the rubber grommet and then use a wire hanger on which I taped the wires with electric tape and pushed them from inside the cabin through the grommet and firewall all way under the brake booster and with a long pliers pulled them up, this is from inside of cabin:

And this is from outside, one of those many wires goes to a fuse panel that supplies all gauges I installed. Hard to see in that mess but good enough as an idea:

Note that I don't have a battery inside the engine bay and I used the space for custom wiring. The power for the fuse panel comes from the radio + through a relay.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:28 pm

Hi thermorex thanks for the photo's, what is the reason for moving the battery and were did you install it. Since my previous post I managed to find a small unused grommet behind the brake booster that's on the right hand side of my Jeep and because the oil temp and oil pressure sensors are on that side makes sense. Will look into using your advice for the turbo gauge and run the cable through on the left hand side.
The main issue is mounting the gauges. I am not keen on the a pillar option or on top of the dash. Thinking of removing the factory radio (has no Aux input) and installing the gauges there, and find a small amp to power a MP3 player through door speakers.
Been searching ebay for an amp with a remote on-off volume control to mount with the gauges.
Not getting into a debate about what is the correct side of the road we should drive. My second home is in Spain and to be honest I like driving my right hand drive car on the right side of the road? But that's probably because the roads are better and far less traffic.

thermorex · **Posted:** Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:00 pm

The purpose of moving the battery is to install both in the "trunk", but some people don't like this since it sacrifices trunk space. I mostly drive the jeep alone or with another person and for me it's not an issue and for more volume I have the 99 Cherokee and a trailer. I liked mostly the idea of freeing the engine bay so I can use a battery box as custom wiring holder.

Weeks101 sells some nice aluminum gauge pods that mount as replacement for vent round grille, so you also get some space for the heating and have a gauge in the center.

He also has a bigger size to fit the 3 in 1 diesel gauges (don't remember the size, but you can see details at glowshift.com on their 3 in 1 gauge line), and that may be fine for you.

Regarding the correct side of the road, just poking some fun on you U.K. Folks

.

Oh, I believe the firewall is somehow symmetric on both right and left side steering wheel jeeps, correct? Because you may have my left wiring grommet to the right where is the steering wheel. Not sure if right but either way, shouldn't matter, it's not such a big deal to find a spot for few wires.

xhizzous · **Posted:** Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:30 am

If anyone puts a new head gasket on I would recommend coating the whole thing in a few layers of spray copper. My uncle has been doing this for a few years now and I started doing it as well when it comes to it. Just this little bit tends to go a long way in terms of getting everything to seal properly.

http://www.jbtoolsales.com/permatex-806 ... aQodRZAANA

lacabrera · **Posted:** Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:02 pm

thermorex wrote:

The purpose of moving the battery is to install both in the "trunk", but some people don't like this since it sacrifices trunk space. I mostly drive the jeep alone or with another person and for me it's not an issue and for more volume I have the 99 Cherokee and a trailer. I liked mostly the idea of freeing the engine bay so I can use a battery box as custom wiring holder.

Weeks101 sells some nice aluminum gauge pods that mount as replacement for vent round grille, so you also get some space for the heating and have a gauge in the center.

He also has a bigger size to fit the 3 in 1 diesel gauges (don't remember the size, but you can see details at glowshift.com on their 3 in 1 gauge line), and that may be fine for you.

Regarding the correct side of the road, just poking some fun on you U.K. Folks

.

Oh, I believe the firewall is somehow symmetric on both right and left side steering wheel jeeps, correct? Because you may have my left wiring grommet to the right where is the steering wheel. Not sure if right but either way, shouldn't matter, it's not such a big deal to find a spot for few wires.

Noticed you also have an oil temp gauge. What temp do you see under normal driving?

thermorex · **Posted:** Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:30 pm

Under normal driving its hovering between 170-180F. What you see in the pic is the temp after driving from work, about 12 miles. Going uphill for many miles, even with couple people in the jeep, at highway speeds, it can get to 220-ish. Egt can reach 900+F. Can't say with towing as I haven't towed more than few miles on straight roads.

I put together a chart with approximate pressures at idle correlated with oil temp, this using Mobil 1 5w40 turbo diesel truck that I had at that time in the jeep:

Idling oil pressure / temp values:
50 psi @ 100 deg
40 psi @ 120
30 psi @ 140
25 psi @ 160
20 psi @ 180

lacabrera · **Posted:** Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:44 pm

thermorex wrote:

Under normal driving its hovering between 170-180F. What you see in the pic is the temp after driving from work, about 12 miles. Going uphill for many miles, even with couple people in the jeep, at highway speeds, it can get to 220-ish. Egt can reach 900+F. Can't say with towing as I haven't towed more than few miles on straight roads.

I put together a chart with approximate pressures at idle correlated with oil temp, this using Mobil 1 5w40 turbo diesel truck that I had at that time in the jeep:

Idling oil pressure / temp values:
50 psi @ 100 deg
40 psi @ 120
30 psi @ 140
25 psi @ 160
20 psi @ 180

My figures using 5W-30

40 psi @ 100 deg
30 psi @ 120
23 psi @ 140
21 psi @ 160
18 psi @ 180

My gauges are digital and are suppose to be accurate to a 0.5 psi and 1 degree. Next time I change the oil I am going to try 5w-40 and see if the pressures increase.
Just reading the FSM minimum oil pressure at idle 0.7 bar/ 10 psi so any thing over that is ok.
I am surprised on turbo boost pressure, Can easily reach 26 psi. The warning light on the gauge is factory set at 21 psi so it flashes every time you hit the loud peddle :?:

thermorex · **Posted:** Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:34 pm

I saw mine jumping to 25-ish (I have an analog gauge) when I slam the pedal to the metal, but right after goes to 20-ish. I think map sensor needs to read >21 psi for an amount of time prior to throw the overboost code. Do you run for good seconds with 26 psi or with >21psi?

Thanks for sharing the pressure, it gives me an idea on what to expect with 5w30! The pressure will definitely increase with 40 weight, the question is by how much. It does seem to be a big difference at cold in between 30 and 40 weight oil, which makes me go even more towards getting 5w30 diesel oil. Maybe you can buy me some from UK and ship it here, lol.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:17 pm

If I floor the pedal the boost warning light will stay on until I lift off or run out of RPM, manual gearbox so tend to lift on gear change. Gauges reads between 24 and 25 and spikes @ 26. The ECU has been remapped and its possible the turbo boost has been modified?
I guess with my oil pressures 5W-30 would suit colder climates. But one thing I noticed to day on a cold start the oil pressure goes of the scale @ 99 psi? for about 30 seconds. Maybe its the sensor? or gauge?

thermorex · **Posted:** Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:07 pm

On a cold start, I get the needle of the gauge at 100psi. But the sensor is rated for 80psi, so I'd guess it must read over 80psi and sends signal to the gauge that's making it show 100. I think it's normal to read that much but only till engine warms up so oil temps are warmer and the pressure drops to the interval known by the sensor. It takes about a minute to get to 80-ish psi when outside temps are about 45-ish. In the winter, below 10F it may take 2+ minutes to see the gauge showing under 80psi. Regarding your oil, I'd use that 5w30 even in Florida or Arizona , thinner oil at cold is always better than thicker. Plus, I see the difference between your oil and mine at 180 are very minimal in pressure... I do like so far the results you posted, I'll jump on Amazon to get a diesel 30 weight oil. Can you please let me know what exact brand and name of oil you use?

Not sure about remapping the ecu in your case, do you have a known tune like gde?

Bad engine noise?

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