CRD Head Gasket - What's the Prognosis?

kafingerlos · **Posted:** Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:17 am

So I'm seeing more and more people with head gasket issues. I'm looking for advise with mine.

I've got a 2006 LIberty CRD which has has a progressively worsening coolant issue. It rarely leaves puddles (none for a long time now) but seems to push coolant out of the overflow tank. I've had it into the dealership several times and they've been unable or unwilling to call a final diagnosis up until this past week (more in a moment). Up to this point they have replaced the water pump, coolant tank, and thermostat. They've tested the coolant for exhaust gases and insisted that the test was negative.

This past week they've come back with "there must be an internal leak; perhaps a head gasket or cracked head, or cracked block" - with the service adviser clearly leaning towards the cracked block.

From there I start getting estimates for a head gasket, new head, and new engine. None are particularly appealing when I consider that the vehicle does have 175K miles on it.

So I'm feeling like I need a second opinion from someone who knows these engines; at least to the probability of a cracked head or block. Others on this list who've made the repair and have had success or failure? And was it a permanent fix?

I like my Liberty, I've had it since 40K miles, but I not married to it. I know what it's market value is, and what a comparable vehicle would cost. At this moment I'm trying to decide if I should declare it a lost cause. Any advise is greatly appreciated.

Kenneth

Parker, CO

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:14 am

I wouldn't trust a dealership to properly diagnose what day of the week it is, without being spotted 6 tries in advance.

Cracked blocks and cracked heads are EXTREMELY RARE. Failed head bolts and head gaskets are extremely common.
If the block was "cracked internally" (which is bull!) then the water would be mixing with the oil. If that isn't happening, then you are having combustion pressure pushing out through the leaves of the gasket and into the water jacket. Combustion gas testing isn't an exact science, but if your CRD is losing enough coolant to fill the overflow side of the bottle - then the combustion testers should easily ping a positive result, despite the dealership's uselessness at testing anything.

The kits are like $25 at Napa. You want one for a diesel, obviously, and you can do it yourself. If the color changes, you have a result.

Now, about the gasket and the studs - This is a permanent fix, and anecdotally from someone that works on super high performance race engines, the word is that laminated steel gaskets like we have will allow pressure through them about 75% of the time - this is on engines that should have copper fire rings to seal the combustion chamber. We don't have a fire ring, but the gasket is supposed to be compressed against the tip of the cylinder liner. If the compression isn't sufficient, then leaks happen. The factory bolts are CRAP and weaken over time. They also may not have ever been torqued properly. Please record your torques for the research thread, if you tear the top down to install the studs.

If you aren't capable of this work (it's ok, not everyone is) then you may want to contact Sir Sam - he is in Colorado somewhere, and certainly closer than I am. But I can do the work for you too, the travel will just cost more.

This isn't the end of the world, it isn't even that uncommon. Remember that happy drivers aren't on here posting and complaining though - only the ones with issues or looking for solutions.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:34 am

Another possibility is that the EGR cooler is leaking.
A leaking EGR cooler can show the same symptoms as a leaking head gasket.

In my opinion, the only conclusive test for a head gasket leak is:
1. Pressurize the cooling system
2. Remove all 4 glow plugs
3. Unplug all 4 injectors
4. Crank the motor
If water comes out of any of the glow plug holes, you head gasket is leaking.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:21 am

You have received good advice. We were also pushing coolant into the overflow, though only when towing, but SEVERAL different tests for exhaust gasses in the coolant were all negative. However, when we removed the head, there was an obvious leak in the head gasket, right where the head bolts had lost torque, (the most common problem past 120K miles). ARP studs and a new HG are the recommended fix.

DOC

flman · **Posted:** Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:48 am

I agree with the head gasket, block leak would not cause coolant to go into the overflow and spill out the weep hole.

Let your engine cool down overnight and try this test. You should not have any pressure in the cooling system beyond a fart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Go4FC0riQs

Notice there was enough pressure to make the level low before the cap was removed.

You should also stay away from the dealer unless you have enough money to sign a blank check and tell them to just fix it.

kafingerlos · **Posted:** Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:28 am

flman wrote:

Let your engine cool down overnight and try this test. You should not have any pressure in the cooling system beyond a fart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Go4FC0riQs

Notice there was enough pressure to make the level low before the cap was removed.

Well, after sitting several days, we still have considerable (similar to that shown in the video) pressure retained in the coolant system. So presumably consistent with the failed HG diagnosis. Oil is clean.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:38 am

Retained pressure is somewhat irrelevant, although that does suggest that the rest of the system is still sealed and pressure only enters from a higher source - like combustion - and doesn't leak back the same way. That is a good thing, it could mean you are a candidate for just installing the ARP studs and that could fix the problem without removing the whole gasket. When the pressure goes back into the cylinder, the gasket is completely compromised.

To confirm the suspicion: Vent the pressure from the COLD engine, then start it up and let it idle for about 30 seconds to 1 minute. This is not enough to cause any thermal expansion (another source of pressure) but combustion pressure is still way higher than water pressure. Shut the engine down, and check the radiator cap again. Any pressure?

If so... Sorry you have a leaking head gasket. If not - then your pressure is from somewhere else, like water thermal expansion.

flman · **Posted:** Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:09 pm

The cooling system is a vessel, the only pressure you should get is from the expansion of the coolant as it heats, when it cools it should go pretty close to the same pressure when you put the cap on 0 PSI. Not much could cause it to retain pressure when it has cooled back down and coolant has retracted back to normal volume. So only an external source could cause you to maintain pressure. If you remove the cap and the level in the recovery tank rises you have a problem.

Another good test is on a cold engine squeeze the upper radiator hose, if it is hard, you have a head gasket issue, that is the only way to put pressure in and not allow it to escape back out.

Also, you did say it was pushing coolant into the recovery and leaking near the exhaust down pipe?

Both of mine have no pressure at all when cold.

shadow63 · **Joined:** Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:04 am **Posts:** 208

@ geoardi Now I'm wondering if my head gasket is bad or is it something else. My tstat was bad and replaced it flushed the system Of all that k.seal bullpoop and it doesn't seem to be under combustion in the tank as much As before. But after about 2 weeks more of the k seal residue is back in the plastic coolant reserve tank..so frustrating!

kafingerlos · **Posted:** Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:33 pm

Well, what had happened with mine was that we started noticing some coolant loss; needing a top up say every couple months, eventually it became more frequent, as in every 50 miles or so.

Replaced the coolant bottle and cap. No real improvement. Replaced the T-Stat, with no real improvement. Replaced the water pump; and then the problem became less frequent - as in a quart every 1000 miles.

Recently it became much worse - loosing a quart in perhaps 5 miles; leading to my most recent visit to the dealiership and their "internal leak" diagnosis.

I have noticed that in it's current state; particularly when cold; I'm getting a lot of white smoke out of the tailpipe. No particular odor of coolant, but does perhaps smell a bit of oil (but.. ahem... it is a diesel).

The only time I've witnessed coolant physically leaking it was from the overflow tank, followed by the sizzle/hiss as it dripped on the exhaust.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:22 am

Ok, try this.

Since your leak is so extreme, this should show results REALLY fast. Connect a length of hose to the nipple under the radiator cap (what feeds the overflow side of the jug) and route it into a gallon bottle that you can just stuff into the engine bay for a bit.
Drive around and check it. Is it filling up? If so - you have MASSIVE pressure overdriving the 16 lb cap spring, and that is a head gasket.

Now, where are you located?

kafingerlos · **Posted:** Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:51 pm

So of course I go out to try this and everything is working as it should. No visible white smoke from the tailpipe (um.. it was yesterday!). I topped up the coolant cold, started, idled for a minute, powered off. Just a tiny "pfft" when I poped the cap.

Recently it's been reliable that a 10 mile drive will give a low coolant warning. So I connected the overflow hose and took a short drive. 14miles later I parked it. No visible coolant in the overflow "jug" and no obvious loss of coolant from where I'd topped it up. Going to let it cool overnight and see where it is tomorrow and repeat the test. Sheash.

Not sure if it's related or not, but it does seem like I've replaced a lot of glow plugs in this motor - as in about 1 per year; but I've lost two in the last 3 months. #1 and #2

EDIT: Upon closer inspection of my records I see that Glow Plug #2 has been replaced 3 times, in 9/2009, 6/2013, 12/2014 . Glow Plug #1 is currently needing replaced. Mysterious coolant loss was first noted in 6/2013 and addressed via a new radiator cap; next noted issue was 8/2014.

Kenneth

kafingerlos · **Posted:** Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:49 pm

So roughly 40 miles, and we've lost about 1/2" of coolant from the reservoir; but it would seem only a few drops to my surrogate overflow tank.

We were quite definitely blowing coolant past the cap prior to the replacement of the T-Stat and water pump. Have not observed the overflow side of the tank having been "full" since that work was done. The above results would seem to indicate that the coolant has now found another exit. Though I still strongly suspect a head gasket failure.

Kenneth

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:19 pm

Yeah, a half-inch of coolant in the bottle is a decent amount. I'm concerned what the results will be when the head is lifted off - I don't see yours as a candidate for just a one-by-one replacement of the bolts with studs. You are too far gone for that right now. You may also want to visit your local NAPA and get a combustion test kit, the results on smaller leaks have been inconclusive... But I don't think yours will be. It really would just be a confirmation that exhaust is making it into the water jackets, but we kinda already know this is happening.

I'm willing to discuss flying out there if Sir Sam isn't interested in working on it and you don't want to tackle it yourself. It isn't a fun job, and a solid 2 days of work to pull it all apart... IF the studs on the turbo decide to cooperate. Getting the turbo out has been a bugger on other CRDs.

flman · **Posted:** Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:20 pm

I leave the turbo right on the manifold when I pull the head, you would be surprised what you can do with a 1/4" universal joint to get those center manifold nuts out and back in.

Note the actuator still on the manifold.

kafingerlos · **Posted:** Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:31 pm

So here's a newbie question - why is it that in context of a head gasket concern, that a compression test is never discussed?

Seems like on a gasser, this is where we'd go, and we'd end up identifying that a given cylinder is low. Why wouldn't we do the same for a Diesel? I'd always thought it was because you couldn't get access to the combustion chamber without a major teardown; but as I've been digging into this issue with mine I'm realizing that the injectors and glow plugs are both accessible externally. Is there a reason why we don't pop the glow plugs and verify?

Thanks!

Kenneth

flash7210 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:27 pm

kafingerlos wrote:

So here's a newbie question - why is it that in context of a head gasket concern, that a compression test is never discussed?

Seems like on a gasser, this is where we'd go, and we'd end up identifying that a given cylinder is low. Why wouldn't we do the same for a Diesel? I'd always thought it was because you couldn't get access to the combustion chamber without a major teardown; but as I've been digging into this issue with mine I'm realizing that the injectors and glow plugs are both accessible externally. Is there a reason why we don't pop the glow plugs and verify?

Thanks!

Kenneth

if compression testors for this engine were inexpensive and easy to find i imagine more people would be doing it

senatorjohn · **Posted:** Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:55 am

Compression testers should be readily available for diesel engines and inexpensive. All you need is an adaptor that mimics the injector and a high pressure gauge and hose. Easy to make if you have access to a lathe. Never needed to make one yet since work had all the gear and I never owned a diesel then.
John

flman · **Posted:** Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:40 am

It is pretty obvious when a high compression diesel develops a head gasket leak, at least on these VM engines. Even people that go to the dealer are not getting a compression test.

funnyman06 · **Joined:** Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:46 pm **Posts:** 180

Just as a heads up from my own personal experience. When you get the chance you should get the head off the jeep as soon as you can to determine what the cause might be. I sent my jeep in with what I expected to be a blown headgasket, and it turned out that the EGR cooler had been leaking for a while and cracked all 4 cylinder liners and the head. 5 grand in parts later and an unknown amount of labor and she should be back on the road. I just wish the PO had taken the time to figure out what the issue was before he killed the motor.

But even in the end, these engines were designed to be torn down and rebuilt. So long as the block is good, life goes on.

CRD Head Gasket - What's the Prognosis?

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