LOST JEEPS :: View topic - Newby, probably dumb questions

cfeller wrote:

gmctd wrote:

http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=54207

Too much information there to assimilate in one session!

Use it as reference each time you have a question

Also, FYI:

A - A torque converter will couple shudder into the drivetrain\driveline\chassis ONLY when in TCC lockup
- the drive plate directly couples the crankshaft hub thru the TC cover thru the clutch disk and apply plate directly to the input shaft directly thru the clutches\gears to the output shaft, thence into the differential into the rear axles thru the wheels'n'tires to the road
- if not in TCC lockup, it is a simple hydraulic coupling - hydraulic fluid does not transfer shudder\vibrations very well

B - torque converter imbalance is a source for continuous vibration not only amongst the drivetrain but in PARK\NEUTRAL

What can cause transmission-related shudder prior to lockup is
- faulty temperature sense output
- faulty pressure sense output
- faulty input\output speed sensor response
- fluctuations in shifting as clutches are applied\released resulted from valve-body leakage
- hydraulic pumping fluctuations, in this case resulted from leakage in the 545RFE dual pump circuitry
- fluctuations in TCC apply piston
- deteriorated clutch-apply additives in ATF+4

C - Could even be the differential clutch in the xfer case, isolates the front\rear driveline for 4wd highway usage

D - Could be ECM trying to correct for injection problems in the engine
- usually resulted from fuel starvation due to leaky fuel manager head
- usually resulted from fuel starvation due to leaky fuel line connectors back at the fuel tank
- injectors don't last forever, so could be injection quality in one or more cylinders, very easily noticeable in a 4-cyl engine

E - Could be ECM trying to correct for deteriorating valve-train, as in damaged rocker\lifter assemblies

F - Could be ECM trying to correct for excessively EGR-plugged intake manifold

G - Could be sagging chassis\drivetrain bushings allowing driveshaft cross-and-bearing angles to exceed design limits under application of increased power, which for sure causes shudder

H - Could be TRAC-LOK differential locking clutches slipping

There is a world of possibilities that cannot be solved by replacing the Torque Converter, which main problem was shudder in TCC lockup resulted from inadequate\insufficient springing, meaning too weak or\and too few damping springs in TCC clutch hub

Oem, EURO, Hemi and SUNCOAST Hemi torque converter substitution\installation has not totally resolved incidence of shudder

Upgraded front pump and TC shift kits, along with TC upgrades, help to reduce severity and incidence of shudder if 545RFE-related

Just don't expect it to be a cure-all, particularly so now that these KJ mules are getting a little long in the tooth, at 10yrs and 100kmi of age

However, you can expect an upgrade in performance with the Hemi TCC, whether you spring for the stock oem or any of the up-priced after-market upgrades, starting with the excellent SUNCOAST version

p.s.

You don't want the DCJ NAV system - requires yearly upgrade via purchase of an expensive DVD

Best look into a quality aftermarket version, easily removed for safekeeping when away from the KJ

Author:	cfeller [ Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Newby, probably dumb questions
Just bought an 06 CRD Limited this week with 110,000 miles on it. When bringing it home, I noticed when accelerating on an uphill grade I get a shuddering. Feels like driving on the rumble strip along the shoulder. Today on a much steeper grade, I attempted to accelerate to pass and had the shuddering again with the O/D off. It also didn't downshift as I would have expected at approx. 40 mph. From reading here I am guessing that it is the torque converter, but want to be sure before purchasing the parts. I'm also trying to have the dealership contact the previous owner to see if the 100,000 mile timing belt service was performed....which I'm guessing was not. At this point I am planning to purchase a 5.7 hemi TC and the Transgo shift kit. If the timing belt service needs done, is this the recommended route? http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_ ... ts_id=2721 Also seems like most are running the green diesel program to get better power/mileage. At a cost of around $700, and a gain of 5mpg max and 28 HP, seems like it wouldn't be a good investment unless there are other benefits which I'm not aware of since this is my first diesel. Any opinions appreciated, thanks!

Author:	Drewd [ Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Newby, probably dumb questions
I would use the "euro" torque convertor and not a gasser torque converter. ID parts TB kit has all you need. Do the job yourself or you will probably be sorry unless you find a local CRD owner with correct tools. Independent shops will screw up the job and ask to see the Miller tools if they say they can do it. Dealerships with correct tools are probably no better <-- trust me on this. If you replace the torque converter, replace the front pump with the newer design which doesn't leak as much-better design. I would park the CRD until the timing belt is done. Too risky to drive and too expensive if the belt breaks. Couple of mods you should get ASAP: Fuel lift pump. I have an inline one and works great but if you want to go all out you can get one in the fuel tank. Upgraded fuel head. I have a Racor 225 fuel head and it is perfect and the large fuel filter on it lasts 40-50k miles easily. If you drive with a bad torque convertor you may experience damage that is $$ when it does go. Mine went suddenly with no warning at 104k miles. The vibration was so great that it wiped out my rear u-joints on drive shaft and I needed a new drive shaft that got badly damaged. THe damaged TC also took out my front pump and sent metal everywhere. When doing TB, pressure test the intercooler. Odds you have a leak by the intake housing area. A Provent Crank Case ventilator filter is something I have put on every diesel I've owned for the past 15 years. I have one on each of my CRDs (a Grand Cherokee and my LIberty). It is amazing how much oil they capture in the blowby gasses. Check intake assembly to turbo for cracks and tears...mine went bad by 110k miles. Check for pressurization of coolant tank after running engine on first start of day (cold engine) for 2-3 minutes. If there is pressure you have a head gasket leak. On cold engine, check turbo shaft for axial and radial play.

Author:	cfeller [ Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Newby, probably dumb questions
Wow! Great information. Thanks so much. Sounds like a lot of extra money I hadn't planned to invest after a fresh purchase. Still waiting to hear from the dealer on whether the 100,000 service was done. I figure it was traded to avoid that expense. I'm no mechanic, and find no one near me on the list of recommended mechanics I saw on here. I'm located in Western Maryland if anyone knows of someone near by. After reading more, looks like I may have gotten in over my head with this one! The purpose of buying this Jeep was for a work vehicle to save putting the miles on my 2011 Ram. Figured the diesel engine would last for a few hundred thousand miles and be economical to drive. On the plus side, the Jeep is a one owner Virginia vehicle with all the bells and whistles and a brand new set of tires. Anyone interested? LOL

Author:	gmctd [ Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newby, probably dumb questions
cfeller wrote: Wow! Great information. Thanks so much. Sounds like a lot of extra money I hadn't planned to invest after a fresh purchase. Still waiting to hear from the dealer on whether the 100,000 service was done. I figure it was traded to avoid that expense. I'm no mechanic, and find no one near me on the list of recommended mechanics I saw on here. I'm located in Western Maryland if anyone knows of someone near by. After reading more, looks like I may have gotten in over my head with this one! The purpose of buying this Jeep was for a work vehicle to save putting the miles on my 2011 Ram. Figured the diesel engine would last for a few hundred thousand miles and be economical to drive. On the plus side, the Jeep is a one owner Virginia vehicle with all the bells and whistles and a brand new set of tires. Anyone interested? LOL viewtopic.php?f=5&t=54207

Author:	WWDiesel [ Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newby, probably dumb questions
Some on this forum have posted of still experiencing some shudder after installing the Euro TC, the jury is still out on the Hemi TC as a viable option... Lots of reading on it, just search for "Hemi TC". If you want the absolute best TC, go with the SunCoast TC, it is bullet proof, but costly. (u get what you pay for) Be sure and replace the front pump and install a TransGo kit while you are in there no matter what TC you decide on! As to tunes; if you know your way abound a laptop, there are some free tunes available on this forum at: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=98&t=78418 How much you asking for it as is??? LOL

LOST JEEPS http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/

Newby, probably dumb questions http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=81636	Page 1 of 2

Author:	flman [ Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newby, probably dumb questions
Send your vin to Keith at GDE and ask him if he has a tune in his records.

Author:	cfeller [ Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newby, probably dumb questions
gmctd wrote: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=54207 Too much information there to assimilate in one session!

Author:	cfeller [ Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newby, probably dumb questions
WWDiesel wrote: Some on this forum have posted of still experiencing some shudder after installing the Euro TC, the jury is still out on the Hemi TC as a viable option... Lots of reading on it, just search for "Hemi TC". If you want the absolute best TC, go with the SunCoast TC, it is bullet proof, but costly. (u get what you pay for) Be sure and replace the front pump and install a TransGo kit while you are in there no matter what TC you decide on! As to tunes; if you know your way abound a laptop, there are some free tunes available on this forum at: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=98&t=78418 How much you asking for it as is??? LOL I hate to spend that much on the SunCoast when I can get the Hemi for around $150.....but I don't want to do it again, either. Have to study on that some more. I've read through the tunes link you sent and it seems like the MPGs aren't really increasing much, but the performance is boosted significantly. I do IT work for a living, so the actual process of installing one of the tunes these gurus have created wouldn't be much of a problem. I probably gave too much for it to be able to sell it.....I have $11,700 in it right now. I had my reasons for spending that though, it is one owner, pretty much immaculate and loaded with all the goodies, leather, power sunroof, PW, PDL, remote hatch opening, heated power mirrors, auto dimming rearview, info center, dual power heated seats, rear defrost and wiper, bluetooth phone connection, AM/FM with 6 CD changer and Sirius, tilt, cruise, steering wheel mounted audio controls....only thing it didn't have is NAV. Oh, it also has a brand new set of tires, full set of husky liners including the cargo area and the two level grocery rack deal in the cargo area.

Author:	gmctd [ Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newby, probably dumb questions
cfeller wrote: gmctd wrote: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=54207 Too much information there to assimilate in one session! Use it as reference each time you have a question Also, FYI: A - A torque converter will couple shudder into the drivetrain\driveline\chassis ONLY when in TCC lockup - the drive plate directly couples the crankshaft hub thru the TC cover thru the clutch disk and apply plate directly to the input shaft directly thru the clutches\gears to the output shaft, thence into the differential into the rear axles thru the wheels'n'tires to the road - if not in TCC lockup, it is a simple hydraulic coupling - hydraulic fluid does not transfer shudder\vibrations very well B - torque converter imbalance is a source for continuous vibration not only amongst the drivetrain but in PARK\NEUTRAL What can cause transmission-related shudder prior to lockup is - faulty temperature sense output - faulty pressure sense output - faulty input\output speed sensor response - fluctuations in shifting as clutches are applied\released resulted from valve-body leakage - hydraulic pumping fluctuations, in this case resulted from leakage in the 545RFE dual pump circuitry - fluctuations in TCC apply piston - deteriorated clutch-apply additives in ATF+4 C - Could even be the differential clutch in the xfer case, isolates the front\rear driveline for 4wd highway usage D - Could be ECM trying to correct for injection problems in the engine - usually resulted from fuel starvation due to leaky fuel manager head - usually resulted from fuel starvation due to leaky fuel line connectors back at the fuel tank - injectors don't last forever, so could be injection quality in one or more cylinders, very easily noticeable in a 4-cyl engine E - Could be ECM trying to correct for deteriorating valve-train, as in damaged rocker\lifter assemblies F - Could be ECM trying to correct for excessively EGR-plugged intake manifold G - Could be sagging chassis\drivetrain bushings allowing driveshaft cross-and-bearing angles to exceed design limits under application of increased power, which for sure causes shudder H - Could be TRAC-LOK differential locking clutches slipping There is a world of possibilities that cannot be solved by replacing the Torque Converter, which main problem was shudder in TCC lockup resulted from inadequate\insufficient springing, meaning too weak or\and too few damping springs in TCC clutch hub Oem, EURO, Hemi and SUNCOAST Hemi torque converter substitution\installation has not totally resolved incidence of shudder Upgraded front pump and TC shift kits, along with TC upgrades, help to reduce severity and incidence of shudder if 545RFE-related Just don't expect it to be a cure-all, particularly so now that these KJ mules are getting a little long in the tooth, at 10yrs and 100kmi of age However, you can expect an upgrade in performance with the Hemi TCC, whether you spring for the stock oem or any of the up-priced after-market upgrades, starting with the excellent SUNCOAST version p.s. You don't want the DCJ NAV system - requires yearly upgrade via purchase of an expensive DVD Best look into a quality aftermarket version, easily removed for safekeeping when away from the KJ

Author:	cfeller [ Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newby, probably dumb questions
gmctd wrote: cfeller wrote: gmctd wrote: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=54207 Too much information there to assimilate in one session! Use it as reference each time you have a question Also, FYI: A - A torque converter will couple shudder into the drivetrain\driveline\chassis ONLY when in TCC lockup - the drive plate directly couples the crankshaft hub thru the TC cover thru the clutch disk and apply plate directly to the input shaft directly thru the clutches\gears to the output shaft, thence into the differential into the rear axles thru the wheels'n'tires to the road - if not in TCC lockup, it is a simple hydraulic coupling - hydraulic fluid does not transfer shudder\vibrations very well B - torque converter imbalance is a source for continuous vibration not only amongst the drivetrain but in PARK\NEUTRAL What can cause transmission-related shudder prior to lockup is - faulty temperature sense output - faulty pressure sense output - faulty input\output speed sensor response - fluctuations in shifting as clutches are applied\released resulted from valve-body leakage - hydraulic pumping fluctuations, in this case resulted from leakage in the 545RFE dual pump circuitry - fluctuations in TCC apply piston - deteriorated clutch-apply additives in ATF+4 C - Could even be the differential clutch in the xfer case, isolates the front\rear driveline for 4wd highway usage D - Could be ECM trying to correct for injection problems in the engine - usually resulted from fuel starvation due to leaky fuel manager head - usually resulted from fuel starvation due to leaky fuel line connectors back at the fuel tank - injectors don't last forever, so could be injection quality in one or more cylinders, very easily noticeable in a 4-cyl engine E - Could be ECM trying to correct for deteriorating valve-train, as in damaged rocker\lifter assemblies F - Could be ECM trying to correct for excessively EGR-plugged intake manifold G - Could be sagging chassis\drivetrain bushings allowing driveshaft cross-and-bearing angles to exceed design limits under application of increased power, which for sure causes shudder H - Could be TRAC-LOK differential locking clutches slipping There is a world of possibilities that cannot be solved by replacing the Torque Converter, which main problem was shudder in TCC lockup resulted from inadequate\insufficient springing, meaning too weak or\and too few damping springs in TCC clutch hub Oem, EURO, Hemi and SUNCOAST Hemi torque converter substitution\installation has not totally resolved incidence of shudder Upgraded front pump and TC shift kits, along with TC upgrades, help to reduce severity and incidence of shudder if 545RFE-related Just don't expect it to be a cure-all, particularly so now that these KJ mules are getting a little long in the tooth, at 10yrs and 100kmi of age However, you can expect an upgrade in performance with the Hemi TCC, whether you spring for the stock oem or any of the up-priced after-market upgrades, starting with the excellent SUNCOAST version p.s. You don't want the DCJ NAV system - requires yearly upgrade via purchase of an expensive DVD Best look into a quality aftermarket version, easily removed for safekeeping when away from the KJ OK, so if I'm not getting any codes does that eliminate some of the possibilities? Closest forum recommended CRD mechanic for me is two hours away. Should I just set up with them instead of throwing parts at it? I could trailer it that far if I need to. Sounds like I'll be investing a couple of grand into it right away to get it up to par, but hopefully it'll give me several years without too much trouble after that. I really like this thing and my first tank of fuel I averaged almost 27 mpg with it! What a load of information on this site, I have been reading all day! Just wish I could understand a fraction of it.... You're definitely right on the NAV, but it needs removed always....bad guys around here have been stealing NAV units and garage remotes from vehicles in parking lots. They have the NAV take them "home" and have a way into the house....

Author:	flash7210 [ Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newby, probably dumb questions
Have you checked for air in fuel? A air in fuel problem can cause a rough running stumbling engine that might feel TC shudder. Its easy to check and cheap to fix. Cheaper than a torque converter anyway. Might want to rule that out first. Im surprised you had TC shudder going up a hill, in 3rd gear (OD-off), pulling no trailer, and with a stock engine tune. If you take it easy, you should be able to gently accelerate up the hill without any shudder. Please take note of what speeds you feel this shudder and whether you have OD on or OD off. It makes a difference. In the mean time, take it easy with your driving and your TC will survive. Get you timing belt changed first. Then if the transmission continues to be a problem change the TC.

Author:	gmctd [ Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newby, probably dumb questions
Concur on leak-related stumbling\hesitation\vibration\shudder Concur on the timing belt - these things first: - utmost importance to see if belt is currently passed due - intake clean-up during that procedure can help eliminate some source of shudder - rocker-arm inspection verification also - upgraded fuel filter head eliminates fuel leak - sealing fuel line connectors at tank -or - - electric auxiliary lift pump, oem in-tank or in-line - verify F37 included upgraded 545RFE front pump

Author:	cfeller [ Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Newby, probably dumb questions
Thanks for the responses guys. You all have been very helpful. After reading the last couple of posts, it does seem like it could be a fuel problem. Gentle acceleration seems to be no problem. Harder acceleration, especially against grade, makes the shudder. When I let off the throttle it smooths out, so it's probably fuel filter or air in line. I'm trying to line up the tools to do the timing belt rather than trust to the dealership, but may end up having to go that route due to the cost of the cam lock tool. I'll print out some of the info I've found here and start with some fuel system diagnostics. One last question and I'll give up for the day. Since the dealership hasn't called me back with the info on whether the 100,000 mile service was performed, I'd like to check the belt to see if it looks new. If I loosen a few of the bolts at the top of the timing belt cover, will I be able to see inside enough to verify a new belt? I'd think it would be obvious as opposed to one with 110,000 miles on it if I can just get a peak in there.

Author:	olypopper [ Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newby, probably dumb questions
Don't risk counting on someone else's work. I just purchased a crd with 117k and the engine rockers had been taken out not by the belt, but the water pump! If doing a timing belt, do pump and all idlers and tensioner like IDparts sells. You won't be sorry.

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Author:	KC-CRD [ Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newby, probably dumb questions
In regard to the timing belt tools, take a look at these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/231492378709 It's the cheapest set I have seen. I ordered a set, but haven't received them yet so I haven't evaluated quality. On the sprocket locking tool, ID parts is now selling a cheaper one. $170 for theirs vs $300+ for the miller part. But if that still breaks the budget, I'd attempt the timing belt change without doing the water pump. Particularly since you only have 110k on the motor. If you don't change the water pump you don't need to pull the backing plate, and don't need to remove the sprocket bolts. The purpose of the tool is to transfer some of the force required to remove/install the sprocket bolts. The intake/exhaust locking pins aren't designed for that much torque individually. FWIW, I'd look for a fueling problem being the cause of the shudder too. Unless you receive excellent maintenance records, you probably don't know the age of the fuel filter. I'd change it first. Then you'll know it's clean and not obstructing, and you'll bleed out any air at the same time.

Author:	rankom [ Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newby, probably dumb questions
also check rear drive shaft u joint pn # spicer 5-1310 -x

Author:	DOC4444 [ Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Newby, probably dumb questions
BAD idea NOT to replace water pump. Also, most people know the trick about just replacing the front half. DOC

Author:	cfeller [ Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Newby, probably dumb questions
Ok. So I ordered the timing kit from idparts, the fuel head upgrade, a cam lock tool (the gates one was $99 on idparts) and the lock pin kit from eBay, I'm definitely going to replace the water pump while it's torn apart. Guess we'll see what happens when my stuff arrives!

Author:	flash7210 [ Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newby, probably dumb questions
KC-CRD wrote: In regard to the timing belt tools, take a look at these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/231492378709 It's the cheapest set I have seen. I ordered a set, but haven't received them yet so I haven't evaluated quality. I bought that tool kit from ebay. Let me just say that you get what you pay for. The cam lock pins worked but I felt didn't lock the cams well enough. There was still some movement. The flywheel lock pin was useless so I just used a 6mm allen wrench. The tensioner pulley wrench was the best part. Just be careful with it. Too much force will bend or break the little pins in the tool. I also bought from ebay a cam lock tool that is just like the Gates tool. Again, I felt it didn't hold the sprockets tight enough. In the end, I got the sprockets torqued and belt on and tension set. Cranked it over by hand several times and pins lined up again. Re set the tensioner, cranked by hand several times, checked tension, and pins lined up. So I guess the tools worked. Just be careful using them. I haven't quite finished re assembly of everything and haven't started the motor yet. Its been very slow going for me.

Author:	cfeller [ Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Newby, probably dumb questions
OK, so....tore into the timing belt....got in there and found that it's been done. Called the dealer and talked with the sales manager, who called the P/O who said it was done as well as the water pump. Also explained how my salesman neglected to get me this important information when asked....twice....politely. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! FYI, the ebay toolkit isn't any good, get the Miller tools. Not sure about the cam holding tool since I never got that far. Now to put it all back together and get the fuel head replaced. Drewd- do you happen to have a part number for the Provent crankcase ventilation you recommended? Not having any luck locating it, but haven't spent much time on it yet either.