Hemi TC -- Information to Consider

phum · **Posted:** Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:04 am

Mountainman wrote:

phum wrote:

As an aside, would a remote trans oil cooler help with this situation. It seems to me that the factory cooler in the condenser is a oil heater when the AC. Is on

Nope, I've towed loads up to 8,000 pounds in hot and cold weather with no real change in shudder, other than the weight made it a little worse.

Have you got a remote oil cooler?

Mountainman · **Posted:** Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:11 am

Nope, but I removed all of the AC components, including cutting the ac condenser out. But mostly the electric fan blocks a ton of air from flowing directly through.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:06 am

Mountainman wrote:

phum wrote:

As an aside, would a remote trans oil cooler help with this situation. It seems to me that the factory cooler in the condenser is a oil heater when the AC. Is on

Nope, I've towed loads up to 8,000 pounds in hot and cold weather with no real change in shudder, other than the weight made it a little worse.

Same here.

It's always seemed to be the torque output of the engine VS the static friction holding ability of whatever clutch is in the TC. The hemi definitely holds more than the stock, but wan't nearly enough to hold this ECM tune at low RPM.

As the RPM @ engagement point increases, the torque output slowly drops, and eventually intersects with the clutch static friction, but this only happens above 3600-4000, when the torque is dropping off fast anyway.

In my case:
Stock TC won't do
Hemi TC won't do. Still good though, will sell this when it comes out.
I already have a Non-Suncoast custom billet TC to go in with the original transmission when it's completely rebuilt.
I MAY ultimately end up putting a Suncoast in. Don't know yet, and will probably be a year out before I do, if that's the case.

IF I end up having to put a Suncoast in, I will have ended up spending over $2700 trying to avoid paying for a $900ish TC that I could have installed with a $1000 Reman transmission.

IF this is the result, I will state right now that I went into this with eyes open, as there were myriad L.O.S.T. members that contacted me privately to inform me it would end up being only the Suncoast, and with what I'm building, anything else would be wasted money and time. It's likely that they will end up being correct, however I just don't feel comfortable making that declaration, without proving it's veracity VS less expensive converters. The one in my sig is the one that will go in with the rebuilt original transmission, and is considerably less expensive than Suncoast, (even though I will have personally paid much more.)

Yes, being a stubborn As$ is expensive, but sometimes it can save money for others in the long run.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:17 pm

Unfortunately I can relate;
Years ago I tried to save money on my Dodge Cummins torque converter replacement and it ended up costing me $$.
I did not want to spend the big bucks for the Suncoast TC at the time ($1800 in the box).
So I bought an aftermarket TCI converter that was highly rated and was supposed to be able to hold the the big Cummins. wrong!
Only lasted about one year and the shudder and slippage in lockup was back. :shock:

So, I bit the bullet and bought the Suncoast TC, had it installed, and have never looked back or been sorry.
So when it came time for the Jeep CRD TC, I went straight to the the Suncoast as I did not want to make the same mistake twice.
No issues since install on the Jeep!

Sometimes trying to cut corners and wanting to save a little money can end up costing much more money in the long run.

Experience can be a very hard and / or expensive teacher at times... :banghead:

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:39 pm

WWDiesel wrote:

Unfortunately I can relate;
Years ago I tried to save money on my Dodge Cummins torque converter replacement and it ended up costing me $$.
I did not want to spend the big bucks for the Suncoast TC at the time ($1800 in the box).
So I bought an aftermarket TCI converter that was highly rated and was supposed to be able to hold the the big Cummins. wrong!
Only lasted about one year and the shudder and slippage in lockup was back. :shock:

So, I bit the bullet and bought the Suncoast TC, had it installed, and have never looked back or been sorry.
So when it came time for the Jeep CRD TC, I went straight to the the Suncoast as I did not want to make the same mistake twice.
No issues since install on the Jeep!

Sometimes trying to cut corners and wanting to save a little money can end up costing much more money in the long run.

Experience can be a very hard and / or expensive teacher at times... :banghead:

And Sometimes - Just as often - going straight for the most expensive solution ($900 vs $200) ends up being a completely unnecessary waste of money.
I don't just write this off as experience.
I put it towards the need to know the actual truth of the matter.
But Yeah, it's definitely expensive.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:31 pm

GordnadoCRD wrote:

And Sometimes - Just as often - going straight for the most expensive solution ($900 vs $200) ends up being a completely unnecessary waste of money.
I don't just write this off as experience.
I put it towards the need to know the actual truth of the matter.
But Yeah, it's definitely expensive.

Yeah I agree, there is such a thing as "Overkill" in some cases. :roll:

Finding that happy medium in the middle is always the key and can be difficult in some cases when good data or others experiences is not readily available.
That why it pays to do your own research, see what others are reporting, and then hopefully make the best decision based on facts and not conjecture... :wink:

Hopefully it will help keep you from making an expensive mistake. :juggle:

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:00 pm

WWDiesel wrote:

Yeah I agree, there is such a thing as "Overkill" in some cases. :roll:

Oh I have no problem with overkill, in fact I'm quite a fan. But knowing "where lies the line" is important.

WWDiesel wrote:

Hopefully it will help keep you from making an expensive mistake. :juggle:

I think I'm way past expensive. :roll:

My only redemption now is providing actual empirical data to determine how things work or don't, under what specific conditions that exist with my vehicle. If that can help others save a buck or two, that's probably the only "universal good" that can come of this.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:01 pm

GordnadoCRD wrote:

WWDiesel wrote:

Yeah I agree, there is such a thing as "Overkill" in some cases. :roll:

Oh I have no problem with overkill, in fact I'm quite a fan. But knowing "where lies the line" is important.

WWDiesel wrote:

Hopefully it will help keep you from making an expensive mistake. :juggle:

I think I'm way past expensive. :roll:

My only redemption now is providing actual empirical data to determine how things work or don't, under what specific conditions that exist with my vehicle. If that can help others save a buck or two, that's probably the only "universal good" that can come of this.

Keep it up! Fore long you gonna be the "broke expert"! :ROTFL:

Mountainman · **Posted:** Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:31 pm

OK, so I swapped in a stock TCM. And now I remember that I had the same behavior out of the GDE tuned TCM in the past.
Much less shudder with the stock TCM. Might almost be acceptable, but I hate getting lock up so late, and I have a terrible shift in to 3rd with this TCM. I'll give it a few days to learn, and then try a different stock TCM. I may end up running a stock TCM and getting a quick learn. I've been down this road before, and man I love having Lock up at 35, but I'm going from stock tires in a few days to 245/75 duratracs, so I'll report back.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:33 pm

Gordnado- You really may want to try a different TCM. After I test 2 or 3 I can mail you a happy one to try if you like.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:03 pm

OK, so that was silly, the TCM swap back to stock, or F37 helped a ton because it got the rpm's back up. Then I put on the new 245/75 duratracs and she's a shudder queen again. I talked to suncoast in Florida and they weren't very helpful, but the guy did mention the upgrades in the front pump. I'm going to try the local branch that WWdiesel used as soon as I find the number.
I'm also going to ask Masshole and the guy that built the real hot engine as they are both running way more output than us, and they haven't mentioned much about shudder.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:55 pm

I'm going to try to find what signal function exists to command the TCC engagement. I know it's electrical over hydraulic, but I'm looking to put a manual control on/off function independent from the TCM. Don't know how or if it's possible, but I'm pretty sure that's what I want.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:23 pm

GordnadoCRD wrote:

I'm going to try to find what signal function exists to command the TCC engagement. I know it's electrical over hydraulic, but I'm looking to put a manual control on/off function independent from the TCM. Don't know how or if it's possible, but I'm pretty sure that's what I want.

You can definitely lock the TC with a switch, but from what I've seen with the gde tune, I don't think that it will affect the shudder, unless you just wait until 60 mph or so, which is just inefficient fuel wise.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:08 pm

At the same time, I'm hoping I can get the TCM to engage 4th gear at 40mph instead of 45, and 5th gear at 50mph rather than 65.

Having manual control of the TCC engagement would allow me to maintain lock even to speeds down to, say, 35mph, and if enough torque is called for that it would shudder, in situations, such as passing, I can manually release the clutch to programmed mode until normal throttle conditions are established again.

I'm thinking having the selector switch on the dash side of the steering wheel, and using the unused portion of the clockspring to transfer the signal down the column. Either that, or a less convenient switch on the passenger side of the transmission gear shift knob.

The vast majority of my driving around here is 50mph or below, and not a lot of stop and go, so manual control makes more sense than having it lock / unlock at 57 mph as it does now.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:28 pm

The gde tune basically accomplishes all of that, only you can't disconnect the shudder device. If you got that tune and your disconnect switch, that would be good, but if WWdiesels set up doesn't shudder, then why should ours? I mean, mine shudders bad regardless of TC lock up :furious:

I'll report back after I hear what the jeep crd experienced suncoast folks have to say.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:47 am

GordnadoCRD wrote:

At the same time, I'm hoping I can get the TCM to engage 4th gear at 40mph instead of 45, and 5th gear at 50mph rather than 65.

Having manual control of the TCC engagement would allow me to maintain lock even to speeds down to, say, 35mph, and if enough torque is called for that it would shudder, in situations, such as passing, I can manually release the clutch to programmed mode until normal throttle conditions are established again.

I'm thinking having the selector switch on the dash side of the steering wheel, and using the unused portion of the clockspring to transfer the signal down the column. Either that, or a less convenient switch on the passenger side of the transmission gear shift knob.

The vast majority of my driving around here is 50mph or below, and not a lot of stop and go, so manual control makes more sense than having it lock / unlock at 57 mph as it does now.

I too have though of installing a switch to control TCC application.
But there are a couple issues with that.
1. If the TCM sends the command to apply the TCC and doesn't sense the change at the input speed sensor, a code will be set. Will that force some sort of limp mode? I don't know.
2. The TCM uses PWM to the TCC solenoid in order to reduce the shock of applying the TCC. Manually turning on the TCC without the proper PWM duration will cause a harsh apply of the TCC and might make the shudder problem worse or hurt the clutch in the TC.

If you want the upper gears and TCC to apply at lower vehicle speeds, try a used Hemi TCM. They are pretty cheap on ebay.
Mine will apply 4th gear + TCC at about 41mph under light throttle.
And 5th gear + TCC can apply at about 47mph under light throttle.
With OD-off, 3rd + TCC applies at 30-35mph.

You can also look for standalone transmission contollers for the 545rfe. They exist, but are a lot more $$$ than a GDE trans tune and will require significant time dedicated to tuning and getting the shift points exactly right.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:43 am

At the beginning of the following thread the member mentions that suncoast told him that the shift kit increases line pressure. I'm assuming that it was the front pump upgrades that caused the increase (?).
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34048&start=20

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:57 am

Mountainman wrote:

At the beginning of the following thread the member mentions that suncoast told him that the shift kit increases line pressure. I'm assuming that it was the front pump upgrades that caused the increase (?).
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34048&start=20

See TransGo's web site for their kit information:> http://www.transgo.com/products.php?prd ... ntview=Yes

TransGo wrote:

NOTICE: This kit contains an electrical part "Resistor" which is not compatible with aftermarket engine programmers that modify the transmission hydraulic pressure. This Resistor cannot be utilized in 2005 and up vehicles either.

Not sure on my 05, but I do know the resistor was installed on my Dodge Cummins 68RFE with the TransGo Kit.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:07 pm

WWDiesel wrote:

Mountainman wrote:

At the beginning of the following thread the member mentions that suncoast told him that the shift kit increases line pressure. I'm assuming that it was the front pump upgrades that caused the increase (?).
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34048&start=20

See TransGo's web site for their kit information:> http://www.transgo.com/products.php?prd ... ntview=Yes

TransGo wrote:

NOTICE: This kit contains an electrical part "Resistor" which is not compatible with aftermarket engine programmers that modify the transmission hydraulic pressure. This Resistor cannot be utilized in 2005 and up vehicles either.

Not sure on my 05, but I do know the resistor was installed on my Dodge Cummins 68RFE with the TransGo Kit.

Hmm, my Sonax line booster is similar. It is compatible though. I think it's the heavier spring that makes the difference. It came with the sonax kit I got, and it goes in the front pump. I bet you got one installed with your transgo kit also, and you have no shudder. I hope I'm right

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:11 pm

Mountainman wrote:

Hmm, my Sonax line booster is similar. It is compatible though. I think it's the heavier spring that makes the difference. It came with the sonax kit I got, and it goes in the front pump. I bet you got one installed with your transgo kit also, and you have no shudder. I hope I'm right

The TransGo kit was installed by my transmission expert at the same time when he installed the SunCoast TC.
I have never experienced ANY transmission problems or shudder since the install of both items and the updated front pump assembly...

I have pulled a trailer with about a 3k load up some fairly long grades in 5th overdrive with TC locked up.
I would have to go back and ask him what all it entailed.

Hemi TC -- Information to Consider

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